by
Joseph Peters
| Aug 01, 2023
Announcer:
Welcome to the Voice Of Counseling presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S Kent Butler. This week's episode is Counseling Leadership and Advocacy, Strengthening the Future of the Profession, part two, and features Dr. Barbara Herlihy.
Welcome to the Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and joining us today is Dr. Barbara Herlihy. Barbara is a Professor in Practice and Counselor Education and Supervision Doctoral Program Director at the University of Texas at San Antonio. She is also a Professor emerita in college education and human development at the University of New Orleans. She's an ACA Fellow, a prolific writer, and a co-author with Gerald Corey and Theodore Remley of three current books on the Council Ethics and she's a co-editor with Cassie Storlie who we just spoke with on a new book, Council Leaders and Advocates.
In recent years, she has become passionate about furthering the globalization of the counseling profession and has presented seminars and workshops across the U.S. and in other countries. Dr. Herlihy is here today for a two-part interview with her book again, Counseling Leaders and Advocates, Strengthening the Future of the Profession. Welcome. How are you?
I'm fine. Thank you, Dr. Butler. Thank you for having me. I'm very honored to be part of this series. I've watched some of the vodcasts and just find them fascinating.
Oh, well, I'm glad to have you here and having you on the screen, as opposed to seeing you at the various conferences where we get to hang out and get our hug in and things along those lines, but it's good-
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm hoping I see you soon in Atlanta.
Yeah. Yeah and so you have this phenomenal new book and I had the opportunity to talk with your co-editor the other day. And I'm wondering what inspired this book and how is it different from the other books that you have authored or co-authored?
Well, in terms of what inspired the book, I hope I'm not repeating what Cassie told you.
Oh, don't worry about that. This is your day.
All right. Well actually it became serendipitously. Cassie and I were sitting at a Chi Sigma Iota leadership meeting talking about, gosh, it had been an awful long time since anyone had done a book profiling the professions leaders. And gosh, if someone doesn't do it, we may lose some people, which turned out to be unfortunately, a prophetic thing to have worried about. But so we thought, "Well, why don't we do it?"
And away we went. So it took it, like all books, it took a lot of back and forth trying to settle in how to do it. And then it was a go.
Oh, okay, excellent, excellent.
And this is a completely different topic for me to be writing a book about. Everything I've always written in the past has been about ethics and-
Oh, I don't know about that, but I'm pretty passionate about ethics. But in this case, this book was almost like returning to something familiar for me because it tells the stories of some of our leaders and I am a storyteller at heart. That's not what I'm known for, but that's what I enjoy writing about, stories of people and their resilience. And so I don't have enough opportunities to do that. So this was like returning to a favorite place.
And also it's the first time I've co-ed a book with Cassie Storlie.
Yeah. I had a great conversation with her. It was really exciting to see that the process by which you came up with getting those 13 individuals to be a part of this. That-
Yeah. I mean, we didn't want to just pick people. We knew, obviously. So we created an academy of advisors and then Cassie just took it away and did all of the paperwork, narrowing down and low and behold there we were. We had our bunch and-
All time told, it was about a good four year process to put this book together?
Yeah. It must have been. Yeah. Yeah, because we had to send out the messages to the chosen leaders. They had to choose a mentor who would be willing to write about them. And we received, and then we edited just for consistency of voice. And-
So were all 13 on board immediately? Did you have to do some coaxing?
Just you. So this book is actually phenomenal. I got an opportunity to go through it myself and-
To be a part of your back cover. And so that was-
Oh, thank you for that. That was lovely.
Exactly what we intended and you nailed it.
Well, when you read something that is actually telling you the story, it's not hard to nail it, right. It was pretty easy. So-
You all did a great job in putting the whole package together. So when you look at all the stories you had in this, the narratives of all the individuals that you had as a part of this, what do you find makes the most effective leader, especially here in our counseling profession?
Oh, gosh. I'm going to answer for myself first. My own perspective, an effective leader needs to have integrity.
Both personal and professional. That piece of congruence that separates someone who's leading to make a name for themselves versus someone who's leading to serve. And so doing leadership as an opportunity to serve in our profession, I think is also crucial. And as we move forward in our conversation, I can talk more about what leaders have said, what our leaders themselves say about effective leaders.
Yeah. So how did you know in your own life you were being effective?
Gosh. Oh, that's such a good question. Sometimes I don't know. And it's okay. It's been hard for me to learn that it's okay to not know. Oftentimes I've had an impact that I wasn't aware that I had. And decades later, somebody will say something to me about, "When you did this it meant so much." And I'm like, "What?" And I may not even remember it. So the uncertainty of it is something that I'm still learning to live with.
Yeah. That surprise when somebody comes up to you and makes that, even if someone who hasn't even met you before says that maybe something they read by you or something that they've seen you do, or a webinar now that you've been on or something that has really sent some inspiration their way. I've always enjoyed meeting with you and talking with you and there are so many heavy hitters in the counseling profession.
You're definitely are one of them. And you didn't have to remember who I was, but you did. I remember meeting you and then the next time I met you, you remembered who I was.
But there's something about that, because when you put people sometimes on pedestals and you see their life and you see that you're busy and you're always in the middle of this and that and again, the ethics guru, it's different when the next time you see them, they remember your name and I appreciate that about you. And I think that that is a part of your gift and the part of what people are saying to you when they tell you how much of an impact you've had on their life.
Well thank you. But interestingly enough, I've had that same reaction, "Oh gosh, isn't that wonderful. Kent knows who I am and he remembers me."
Well, I appreciate that but I stand on your shoulders for sure. And so I definitely appreciate you saying that, but I know for a fact that just watching you sometimes from afar, you and... I call you my girl, Harriet Glosoff it's an inspiration to come... There's certain people that you want to see when you go to a conference.
And you, for me are one of those individuals. And the other one is Sam Gladding and I'm tearful and I'm wondering what the conference would be like going this year without him here. And I know that he has had a significant impact on your journey. Want to talk about that a little bit?
I would love to. For one thing, the first thing that comes to mind is I'm so glad that Cassie and I had this opportunity for Sam to tell his story one last time in the book. And that feels rewarding in a sense, although it's so sad to realize that that will be the last time he'll ever tell his story. But Sam was... He's an exemplar to all of us in so many ways. And I was honored to be his friend and colleague. It just, he was the most encouraging and supportive person I think I've ever known. If I can, just give you a story that popped into my head?
It was an ACA conference several years ago, probably even close to a decade and I was scheduled to give this presentation with Sam and Courtland Lee.
[inaudible 00:11:14] Right. I was so incredibly intimidated [crosstalk 00:11:20] And so I had prepared and prepared and overprepared and obsessed. And I ended up going to the convention with this whole big folder which I had prepared for this presentation. So being the nervous Nellie that I am, when it got time for the presentation I got there early, walked into the room which was empty, put my folder of notes on the podium, walked out to get a drink of water, came back in and the folder was gone.
It was gone, just gone. So I am in the room totally unraveling and talking to myself and, "Oh my gosh. I can't do this. This is so awful," and talked myself almost into tears. And Sam walked in and he listened to me for a minute. And I'm telling him, "Oh, this is so awful. I just can't do this." And he just calmly reached out and put his hand on my arm and waited until he was sure he had my full attention and said, "You smiled." And he said, "You've got this." There was something so magical about that. His confidence in me gave me confidence in myself.
That's a magic trick. How does he do that? But that's emblematic of who I think Sam was.
This whole pathway, his whole pathway in his life was almost like a spiritual journey.
For him. Yeah. Him having been a part of the ministry and the way that he has been, his early education was there and for him to be the compassionate counselor and person he was to so many people. The memorials, the things that people have been saying since his passing have been phenomenal. The one that touched me the most though was the one from his son.
You think about what he gave to this profession and you think about the fact that he had an entire family [crosstalk 00:13:46] that he gave to as well.
I really can't even imagine how he did all that. He did everything. Everything and still managed... I mean, he wasn't just a leader in the traditional sense of the word. He was a great teacher, advocate, mentor, role model, and certainly the kindest person I've ever known.
Yeah. So when you think of him, what's your fondest memory? Is it him coming in and putting his hand on your arm? Or is there something even more profound than that moment you've had-
Oh gosh. It's like, I have all these flashbacks. So moments with Sam, that certainly was meaningful to me. More of a fun one is when Sam came and did a workshop for us when I was at University of New Orleans and it was this big room of people and it was a full day workshop. And you know how hard it is to keep people awake for a full day. So Sam was doing something and he looked out and saw that people were starting to drift and all of a sudden he burst into song and started dancing down the aisle.
I know he used to do comedy, but he also was a songster.
He was songster, a funster, a dancer. Everybody of course, was immediately awake going, "What is that?"
He got us all dancing. It was fabulous.
I can sort of remember it, but I don't know the title.
Okay. Oh, do I get to get Barbie Herlihy singing?
No. You don't really want that, although we do dance.
Yeah. We can definitely dance. Definitely that. So let's get back to your book a little bit. So the book Counseling Leaders and Advocates, Strengthening the Future of the Profession, so you see stories of many counseling leaders. How are some common themes found across the profiles in the book? What were the things that you saw come out of that? I know what I saw when I had the opportunity to go through it. But what were some of the themes in the things that you found that underscored the book?
That's such a good question. And I think the first thing that stood out for me after I saw the whole thing put together is there is no single path to leadership.
That we so came from different places. Some people still don't see themselves particularly as leaders. Some people are pretty comfortable at self-identifying and that some people wanted to be leaders from an early point. Others just found themselves there and like, looked like me if you would call me a leader. I look around and I go, "Well, how did I get here? This is where I was going." So-
Mentorship, right. Did you feel you were mentored into this position?
I was. I had early mentors. A gentleman who's been gone for a long time from active involvement, [Verne Sheley 00:17:09]. He used to be the ACES historian. He got me started with writing when I discovered I could do it. Certainly Courtland Lee has been a mentor and a role model to me and friend. Now all rolled into one, but what I saw in the overall picture was the importance of our complex identities and how those play out into who we become. There's a section in the book where we had asked a couple of colleagues who we thought would represent the point of view of our readership. One was a doctoral student. One was a young assistant professor interested in leadership and I asked them to try to do a qualitative analysis and see if they could come up with some themes. And that complex intersecting identities was the first thing that they came up with. Also that mentorship was crucial that, and they found some personal characteristics that seemed to run as threads throughout.
Resilience, perseverance, optimism, humility, authenticity, things that we would all hope to find in our way.
Yeah. And then, I look across the individuals who are part of this project with you and each of them, you talked about being humble, but each of them very unassuming, right, and easy to talk to. You wouldn't think so, right, because again, what we put on others is not fair to them a lot of times, right, and so, as I've gotten to know individuals that I was scared to even speak to when I first was in their presence, I found that they were just normal individuals. They only have the gift or the ability to have written something or been a part of something and really just as approachable as anyone. Maybe they have, for me, like I'm an introvert, so it's hard for me to have small talk with people, right.
But once you get past that, we're just humans, right. We're just-
Yeah. And I mean, I'm going back a few more decades than you would to get to that place of like, "Oh my gosh, there's Courtland Lee or there's Sam Gladding and that open mouth hero worship, like I wouldn't dare approach them.
And then somehow you end up in their space and they're asking about-
Yeah. Something connected people together, right. Because yeah, I used to see Courtland walk around at conferences and I wouldn't go up to him because he was zoned, he was doing something, he was going somewhere and I wouldn't interrupt. He and one of my greatest mentors is Thomas Parham and I was absolutely scared to talk to that man.
Until I talked to him and the funny part about it was I was paired with him on a presentation and had to then talk to him. And so that is... Life has a funny way of making things happen, right. And so I was forced into that kind of a situation to have that conversation. So mentorship, what other things come from the book?
That whole notion of servant leadership.
I mean, there's a lot of literature on different styles and types of leadership, but I think the one that fits our profession and then fits our leaders is really that notion of leadership to serve the profession leadership, to serve others that notion of leading as mentoring and lifting others up is really, really consistent.
Yeah. And you know, I think what's your thoughts on people who are able to lead not knowing whether or not someone will follow, because some of the things that we do, you know, especially when you think about it from a social justice perspective. Yeah. It may not resonate with everybody. But the need for you to be out there and being that voice and you have been that voice, especially when it comes to ethics and other things, right. How does a leader lead not knowing what the follower would do or how the followership... I don't know what that word is, but how the people will come and be a part of that. What's your thoughts on something like that?
So, two words are coming to mind. One is courage because if you take a cause that you know isn't going to be popular with everyone, or you suspect it won't be, that it might make people angry, particularly if you're calling them out on their own behaviors. So there's that courage to move forward into that space knowing that you're not going to be beloved.
Right. But you're doing the right thing. You're doing a repertoire and right thing by what you're bringing forth. Yeah. Right. Neat.
Yeah. I think definitely courage and the element that drives that is passion. You have to really firmly believe in your whatever it is you're trying to promote. All the way to the [inaudible 00:23:06] you're being, both at a personal and a professional level.
So when you think about that, I think I might know where you will go with this, but what's your passion?
Well, I have several. Can I make that plural? What are my passions?
Sure. What are your passions?
Well, for decades I've been so fascinated and so committed to the importance of ethics and ethical practice and so that's the obvious answer.
But Courtland, as a role model for me has led me into a passion for globalization and particularly now with the last two years and all the losses that have been experienced by people all around the world, this is a time when counselors are so needed to help heal the hurt and not just in the United States, by any means. And so when I can travel, I will do that again. And hopefully be some sort of in my small way, ambassador, to bring in counseling to a larger arena than just the U.S.
That's pretty neat. That's pretty neat. So ethics became your thing. Can you just talk... I mean, what would be the message about ethics that you want counselors to know, or you want, I guess, the world to know in general. But what would be your message about ethics, especially from the passionate side of you.
If you look beyond a code of ethics, which is not stimulating reading material, and you think about why would I have to do this, or would I want to do this? There's that whole... That sense of inter congruence that you're doing the right thing, even if it's not the easy thing that has every thing to do with how you feel about yourself and your own identity, your professional identity. We talk about wanting people to be proud to be a counselor. Well, you can't be proud and then if you're also feeling a little uncomfortable, a little ashamed, because you've done something more expedient or more political rather than what was right. And so it's really important.
That's pretty neat. That's, wow. With that being said, and can you talk a little bit about, or maybe you can provide some suggestions. What do you think counselors who are developing into the beings that they are, the counseling professionals that they are, what do you think they need in terms of developing their professional identity and taking action?
Encouragement. I think this begins in graduate school, for sure. And so we, as faculty members have a really strong obligation to be good role models because we lead by example. A lot more than by lecture. And so I think that is really crucial.
Yeah. I think back to my experiences in my master's program and one of the individuals who was really instrumental in getting me started in the counseling career was Michael Wilber. He's since passed. But I remember us being in classes that would be two and a half hour long classes. Our program was one that started at six at night and we had two classes back to back. One class was started-
Just [crosstalk 00:27:15]-
Yeah. So there were long, right. There were very long nights. But I remember there being several days where, like you said, we went past the book, we went past the classroom instruction and we sat there sometimes until one, two o'clock in the morning in that classroom, just talking about life with the instructor. And I think that is the beauty of what made counseling so important for me, because it was more than just what the book was because I was that person who read the book and couldn't get the book out of my head. I was that textbook person, right. My questions to my clients would be like that. And one of the things he shared with me was, "Get out of your head, get into your heart, get into the client," right. What's your thoughts on stuff like that in the classroom?
Well, I think that's, I mean, there's just so much wisdom in that whole idea that you just shared. People who are faculty are usually faculty because we have really good brains. We can think, we can write, we can talk, but we can when we do all of that to hide ourselves from the people we're trying to teach. Not deliberately but when I talk, I think... And I've had this reiterated to me so many times. People remember what I said about me, stories I told about my own vulnerabilities. That's the human connection. If I put myself out as somebody on a higher level or smarter or more ethical or whatever, no one's-
... going to connect with me.
... nor am I going to be able to connect with them.
Yeah. But they can connect with the human side.
Wow. That's beautiful. And what's one of the things that comes from being vulnerable, like that?
Connections, that's a real connection person to person. Not just brain to brain, but person to person. Yeah.
Well, thank you for sharing that.
That's powerful. It's making me ponder why I find myself being vulnerable most times in my life, because I do want those connections and so that's really neat.
You have to take the risk in order to get them, right?
Wow. Well, that's a perfect space for us to take a break. You have to take risks. So we'll take a break. We'll take a risk break.
Oh, sounds like a great idea. I'm going to go take a risk somewhere.
Yeah. So this has been the Voice of Counseling and we are talking with Dr. Barbara Herlihy, and we're going to be back in a few minutes to talk more about her book and her ride in ethics.
Counselors help positively impact lives by providing support, wellness, treatment. We're working to change lives. We are creating a world where every person has access to the quality, professional counseling and mental health services needed to thrive.
Welcome back to the Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and I'm here with Dr. Barbara Herlihy. So Barbara, before the break, we talked a little bit about risks and what that meant in terms of our vulnerability. I'm going to ask you maybe if you were to risk trying to telling us a little bit about your journey and how you got started in the counseling profession and what led you to who you are today? What made you become a counselor?
Wow. I mean, that is a risk for me because I don't talk easily about myself at all, but I guess, okay. I'm just going to start with the basics. I grew up as a child of privilege. I never wanted for anything. The material goods were mine for the asking. And so I was pretty oblivious as a teenager. You know how teenagers are kind of shallow and silly. I was shallow and silly. Very much so. But I have the incredible good fortune of having been born into an era where so much change initiated. And so as a young adult, I became drawn to protests against, well, for certainly the women's movement was huge and completely changed my sense of myself. Anti Vietnam War Movement, Civil Rights Movement. All of these things were things that happened in our society when I was young and energetic and it fueled some passions and brought some awarenesses to me that I just had never thought about. And I think the social justice roots are there in my young adulthood. Certainly not before that.
And I got into the counseling profession. It was completely by accident. Back in my era when I was an undergraduate, women had a couple of career choices. Marriage was the desired one, but if you didn't do that, then you could be a teacher or a nurse, basically. So I was-
Can we go back to that one real quick?
You said marriage was the preferred one. Curious, can you talk a little bit about why that was the case?
That was women's role. You got married and you had children and so I remember my mother being almost in a panic when I got to my senior year in college and I wasn't engaged to someone, "Like, what are you going to do?" They sent me to college to find an educated man. I simply used it as an opportunity to learn, but that wasn't what the intention was and they paid for it, but they didn't get what they paid for.
It's interesting because I think that's part of history that we need to know as well, especially when we look at women and where they are and how they have been groomed, so to speak, to be who they are and why that's so important today when we think about how far women have come, and we always talk about this glass ceiling that they're breaking and we talk about the Me Too Movement and all these other things. It comes at a cost and so thanks for sharing that. Thanks for sharing that.
Yeah. I mean, there are not a lot of good things about getting older, but one of the good things about getting older is being able to have seen the progress first hand. It is not to say where we are where we need to be, because we surely aren't.
We're not where we were and that's a good thing.
So you said you fell into it accidentally, counseling.
I did. So I graduated from college with a teacher's degree and I... Or I was about to graduate with a teacher's degree and I had secured a teaching job in California because that seemed like the happening place to be, right? And then when I went for my course audit, I realized that I had failed bowling. Yeah. Physical education credit was required and somehow I had failed bowling.
I think I just forgot to go.
[inaudible 00:35:28] gutter balls.
Yeah. Whatever. So I didn't graduate on time. I had to go to summer school. And remedial, bowling is not very challenging. Right. So I thought, "Well, I'll just take a couple of graduate classes while I'm here anyhow.
Signed up for two courses in counseling, was hooked immediately. Signed up for two more in the second session of summer school. And then the department came to me and said, "You're a good student. We'll give you a full ride if you want to finish."
So I finished my master's degree. Went out and practiced. Realized there was so much more I wanted to learn and went back to PhD school. So it was just an accident that I signed up for those courses. But-
Yeah. Thank God for bowling. You're so right.
That's so funny. So, wow. So now, what can I get Barbara Herlihy as a gift? I'm going to find a bowling ball.
No one has ever done that, but that would be hilarious.
The significance of the bowling ball.
I don't think I've bowled since that class.
That's great. And so you became a counselor educator and then you became this ethics guru.
Yeah. I don't know how that happened, but yeah. I think I'm really known best, I think, because I've done the writing around it. I'm best known for ethics and that's a passion, but the social justice thing is even a deeper passion for me and I think that certainly began during all of those movements in the '60s and '70s. But what really brought it home to me in a different way was having the experience of living through Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. At the time, people were saying, "Oh, Katrina was an equal opportunity disaster. The poor people and the rich people were equally affected." And that was so not true.
I mean, I never missed a paycheck. I didn't lose my home. I had a car to evacuate safely out of the city. I had insurance to rebuild. Many, many people in New Orleans had none of those things.
Yeah. I remember one of the things that I did that summer was I was in Missouri at the time and I took off my summer and came to New Orleans with the Red Cross and other things to do work down there. Yeah. Devastating. And every time I go back for ACA Conference or whatever reason I need to be back there, I always go back to the Ninth Ward.
And to just visit and to see if there was any progression in how it was. And it's sad. It's sad to go and see how... You think about New Jersey, the whole board walk bounced back.
Ninth Ward to me didn't have that bounce back.
It didn't and it still doesn't. And I remember at the time a lot of the pundits and politicians were saying, "Just let New Orleans go. Everybody should just leave. It's hopeless. It's a mess," right. And there are people saying, "Don't even bother to rebuild it." And what are they saying about new Orleans, which is a rich, culturally rich city, but it's also not a majority-
But it's the culturally rich poor.
Right. So that infuriated me and I made a commitment that once I could get back home, I was going to be part of the rebuilding of New Orleans. And so did some, I think, pretty neat work in mental health in the schools establishing that because kids were so traumatized and they were sent back to school, but they were living in FEMA trailers and their lives were so disruptive.
Disrupted. And so that brought home to me the piece that was missing that I thought I saw myself as this passionate advocate earlier on, but I could go wave my picket sign and go home to my comfortable, safe home. I lived the Katrina experience and it changed my perspective a lot, a lot.
Well, I'm glad it changed it for who I know you to be. And I think about the fact that you're a ACA Fellow, and I think about all the things that you have done for the profession. You've been involved with committees and task force and different roles, different positions that you held. How come that was important for you?
I think for the same reason, it's important to almost all the leaders in [inaudible 00:41:09] profession. We somehow want to pay it forward and we want to give back. This profession has been so incredibly good to me and the people in it and been so incredibly kind and encouraging and supportive that it's all been, let me see if I can give something back. And I'm giving back behind the scenes. I want to be the worker bee who like give me a task and I'll do it, but don't make me the president of anything. So, and ACA in particular has been very accommodating with letting me work on the ethics committee and follow my passion in many ways.
Yeah. Yeah. And so when you think about possibly the legacy that you'll leave, do you think about what that might be, or is there a hope that you would hope that when people look back on your life and what you provided to the counseling profession that, is there any one thing that you would hope that was there?
Hmm. This is aspirational.
Beyond, I mean, I'm not even worthy of this, but I would like people to remember me the way I was remembering Sam as a kind person.
It's already there. So check.
That's one already there. Anything else?
Well, I've seen our profession evolve in terms of its awareness of the importance of ethical behavior and I think I contributed to that in some ways. And if people remember me for that, that's cool.
So, I have a question for you. And one of the things that I've been talking about this year has been the fact that people need to be held accountable for their actions and the things that they've done and the things that they do. There's a lot of messy people.
Yeah. But some people deliberately do mess.
And then in very many cases, it's not very ethical behavior, right?
What's a message to people who maybe can't even see it? Can't even get out of their own way when they provide the messy or the mess. How can we get people who seem to always be in that category of doing wrong or leaning that way anyway, how do we get them to see their behavior?
Well, that's the right question. I would want to ask them, "What is it that you need that you're not getting and how can I help you get that in a different way?"
Wow. So you're giving me goosebumps here.
Oh, I haven't mean to do that.
Wow. What do you need that you're not getting?
I mean, I don't think people are mean spirited or tricky or even messy by intent. I think they fall back on that because there's something they need that they haven't found a way to get.
I sit there and I think about that and I think about how one's upbringing has possibly a lot to do with that. And I'm looking at my own personal life journey and how you said something really early on that you never had a want for anything.
I don't don't feel like I had that either. Right. I don't feel like I had a want for anything. My parents really wanted the best for us. Now, did I get everything I wanted? No. Did I get in trouble sometimes? Yes. But that sense of family, that sense of being able to grow from what they were able to provide and the experiences that I've had in life, that I think is part of what I heard when you said, "What is it that you need that you're missing that you're hoping for?" Wow.
That was very deep. That was very deep. That hit me differently. That hit me deep.
Oh now I've got goosebumps
That hit me differently today. But I think it's a narrative that needs to be said and that it came from you today and hopefully people who are listening to this will understand what that means, right, because that had strong impact. [crosstalk 00:46:34] has strong impact. So as we start to wind down our time together though, maybe we shift a little bit again and go back to the book and it's here as many perspectives and words of wisdom on how counselors can strengthen the counseling profession. What are some of your final words of wisdom that you can leave with us today?
Oh gosh. I don't claim to have any wisdom worth sharing or I just-
Well, can you revert back to three seconds ago, three minutes ago?
I don't know. You know what I'd like to do is maybe share a little bit of what Sam Gladding said in his words of wisdom?
He says, "Leadership is a lifelong process of learning and hard work. Plenty of opportunities exist to make significant contributions in our field. Do not run the race before the starting bell has sounded. Let life develop and unfold rather than trying to make things happen. Listen to what you're hearing inside yourself."
Listen to what is happening inside yourself.
What you're hearing inside yourself.
So, for those people who are messy and sometimes head off the ethical path, listen to what they're hearing inside themselves. There's a phenomenon called moral traces. When you do something and you know it wasn't quite right, it just doesn't sit right in your core. For me, it's almost like having eaten the whole pizza. It's just heavy in my stomach. Other people get back aches, headaches, wherever it comes out in your body. You can see my gestalt training here. But I think that listening to yourself because no one is born mean spirited or messy. None of us wants to be, even though there are people in the world right now that certainly look like they-
... get a lot... Thrive on it. Exactly. But I don't think that's where anyone starts and the people who chose this particular profession don't want to be there.
And I think that's... It goes back to that statement again. What are you missing that you're not getting? Because that's why you're hurting others.
Connections are everything.
Relationships are what fulfill us. It's just human nature.
Yeah. I've learned so much from you today.
Oh, thank you. I have so enjoyed talking with you. You really listen. That's a gift.
Not hard to listen to people like you.
Oh see, you just throw it right back. But take the compliment. You really are a fabulous listener.
Well, thank you. Wow. I can't wait to get my hug.
Hopefully in Atlanta, right?
Well this has been the Voice of Counseling and we're here today with the ethics guru, Dr. Barbara Herlihy. I thank you so much for being a part of our program today. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and we'll see you next time.
All right. Thank you so much for letting me share some thoughts.
Oh, powerful thoughts. I appreciate you so much.
Thank you. We'll see you next time.
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