by
Joseph Peters
| Jul 26, 2023
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling, presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is artificial intelligence in counseling, part two, and features Dr. Olivia Uwamahoro Williams.
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. And joining us today is Dr. Olivia Uwamahoro Williams. Dr. Williams, PhD, with a NCC, LPC, and a CPSC, is an assistant professor of counselor education in college of student affairs at University of West Georgia. Dr. Uwamahoro has clinical experience working with child, adolescent, and adult clients who experience a variety of therapeutic issues. She has worked in inpatient, outpatient, and partial hospitalization settings. So we'll ask her about that, because I'm wondering what a partial hospitalization setting is. I've not heard that before I don't think.
Her scholarship activity centers around the areas of virtual simulation in counselor education and counseling client outcomes, counseling student development, and clinical supervision. Her primary research foci are using virtual simulation to educate and train counseling students in counseling professions for a client outcome and gate keeping in counselor education. Dr. Uwamahoro is currently serving as a co-principle investigator on a five-year, $2.2 million grant funded by the US Rehabilitation Services Administration Innovating Training Program. The project is designed to deliver training to vocational rehabilitation counselors who are hired to work with youth with disabilities who are between the ages of 14 and 16 and pre-employment training services. The remote delivery includes online modules, podcasts, skill training, using UWG Live. And we'll talk more about that, I think that's something to do with University of West Georgia Live, simulation lab, and virtual reality 360 videos. Okay, that's a lot. That's a mouthful. A whole lot of things going on in this woman's life.
So here she is, Dr. Olivia Uwamahoro Williams. How you doing?
Dr. Olivia Uwamahoro Williams:
I am great. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Yes, sir. You one of the longest names I've had to say in history. And I'm so glad that you're proud of your heritage and that you are hanging on to your last name and everything else. So tell me a little bit about yourself and what got you into counseling.
So I won't go from the birth, but as you know, I was born and raised in Rwanda in East Africa. So coming here around the age of 10. We came as refugees and things like that. And so I always knew I wanted to do something in the helping field. And so I really found out about mental health and counseling through my time in my undergrad when I was at the University of Tennessee. And so from there, transitioned to the University of Memphis for my master's program. And while I was there, I was also working as a case manager. And so I had my foot in the door in the mental health field. And so I was seeing a lot of things that were incongruent between what was being taught in the classroom, like, "Oh this is the ethical ways of doing things and patient advocacy." And I'm like, "This is not what I'm seeing in the actual field."
So to me, the disconnect between a bit like okay, there's something here. And so from having conversations with some of my faculty and mentors in my master's program, they're like, "You know what, the questions that you're asking, the things are having you kind of like tossing up and not sleeping at night, these are things that counselor educators focus on. So maybe you should consider pursuing your PhD." And so then that's when I applied and I ended up at UCF, as you know, and was there. And so once I got there, it made a lot of sense for me because I realized that as a counselor educator, I could have a greater impact by helping train and educate future competent clinicians who would then go out and do great work versus focusing on the individual clinical work that I would do, which would be to me like a small level impact.
So from there is where kind of like the bug to get into counselor education happened, and I really ended up realizing doing the clinical work and being an educator really is where I thrive. I love educating. I love training students. And so that's how I ended up as a counselor educator. And of course, during my time at UCF is where my ... I've always had an interest in technology, but really it maximized where I saw the sweet spot between incorporating tech and education, especially within the counseling field, and it grew out of my dissertation that I did, obviously. So that's how, six years later, I am where I am for the [crosstalk 00:05:42] this year.
Okay, well cool. Excellent. Excellent. But you said something that I want to go back to. And I know that you probably don't want to talk about this too much. But I think it's really important to talk about immigration status and all those other things that come with coming to this country. You said you came here at 10 years old. What was that experience like for you?
So interestingly enough, by the time we got here, it wasn't as of a culture shock anymore because a little background, so being from Rwanda, there was the war and the genocide that happened in '94. So fleeing a war-torn country, we lived in a refugee camp for about a year, year-and-a-half. And then we moved to West Africa, kind of like in the process of getting ... Because you have to get and apply for refugee status, which is kind of messed up. Like you're dealing with all this trauma and you still got to go through paperwork to validate your status.
Well you at 10 years old didn't have to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. My mom was the one doing ... My family was the one doing the leg work. And so by the time we got here, I had gotten accustomed to adjusting to my environment that it was like, "Okay, another new space." I had kind of developed skills to adapt. But obviously, once we got here and we got settled, I've been here since I was 10 and I'm 34 now. So 24 years.
We dropping ages, okay. So where did you first arrive to?
Memphis, yes. The corner of Jefferson and Cleveland. Those who are listening or are from Memphis, they know exactly where that is.
Wow, wow. So is there a reason why it was Memphis?
So we came through the Catholic Charity Relief Services. So for families to come, if you're a refugee, you're sponsored. So essentially, everything is done through donors. So somebody has to agree to sponsor a refugee family. And it's about availability, so you're talking about housing resources. So there's families that came with us. We're kind of like through the same process, and some ended up in Texas, some ended up in New York, some ended up in Toronto. So it depends where availability based on resources and the size of your family. So it was like-
So you really have become a country bumpkin. That's what you have become, right?
I grew up in Memphis, and I'm proud of growing up in Memphis. It was a fun time.
No worries. No worries. I'm just messing around with you. So that's got to be something that's really interesting. So you may have experienced some trauma coming up in your youth.
And that is some that may have led you toward counseling you think? Or is that also part of what led you to counseling?
So believe it or not, I didn't see it. I wasn't aware. Obviously, when you're experiencing complex trauma, like literally your life is being threatened, you know that this shouldn't be happening, but just ... I'm pretty sure other people have experienced this where once the physical threat is removed, you kind of stop thinking about it. Because literally you've got to, "Okay, I'm here. I've got to make a life." We literally got here in June. My brother I were enrolled in school in August. So it's like am I ... The adults were like working, because you got to start living. You don't have time to stop and think and process. And it wasn't until I was in my training and actively working as a clinician. I'm like, "You know what? At some point, maybe one I retire and I have a little bit more time on my hands, I want to get involved in the way the refugee process is set up."
Because mental health, it's not addressed. It's about you're coming here. You're getting your bearings. You're getting your status information, like all your stuff, like your checkups, if you have minors, they have to go to school. If you have adults, they have to start working. You get your physical checkups, make sure you're okay. But there was not a conversation of hey, "Maybe we should bring in a mental health professional to just sit with this family." Or even have a support group where you kind of come and you talk about how this transition period is impacting you just as an individual. That was not part of the conversation. And so for me, being 10, I didn't even ... That was not in the forefront of my thoughts. So it didn't start coming up and when I started going to therapy myself for other things, not even related to that trauma, that was like, "Man, I should have been in therapy at 10, processing that trauma, versus me coming to therapy just for my own personal things that was going on at the time." So yeah.
That's really interesting. So I guess I don't want to stay here too long because I know we got other things to talk about. But I think that it's really important to talk about that in terms of your own acculturation. Did you recognize that you were adapting to a new way of living when you got here? And what was that like for you?
Oh yeah. Being a 10 year old, that's what I wanted to do. I just wanted to fit in. I didn't want to be awkward. I didn't want to have ... Because coming, you have the heavy accent, you're moving different, you're just used to different things. So as a 10 year old, I literally was seeking to be acculturated. I wanted to fit in with my peers. And of course, my mom fighting us the whole way, she wouldn't even let us speak English in the house. She's like, "Nope. You can speak English outside of this. As soon as you walk into this threshold, you will not speak English." Because she did want us to lose our native tongue. She's like, "That's not going to happen."
So do you still hold on to your native tongue?
You do? And how often are you?
And I'm glad my mother pushed for that.
Okay, how often are you utilizing it now?
Each time I speak to my mom primarily. My brother, we kind of go back and forth, but any of my older family members, yes, actively. And we're even teaching it to our babies.
So if I was to ask you to translate for me, I am Olivia and I am a phenomenal counselor, how would that come across?
Oh my goodness, okay. I'm Olivia, I'm a phenomenal counselor. You see, the translation's not going to be literal like that. So [foreign language 00:12:48]. So it's not a literal. There's not a official word.
So that's fine. That's fine. So it sounded almost French to me. So can you tell me a little bit about what that was? I know that was your native tongue, but it sounded somewhat French in that regard.
The annunciation of it all. Maybe I'm wrong, but is there some kind of tie to French culture?
No. But Rwanda was colonized by Belgium and France, so there is that history. But my native tongue, Kinyarwanda, is not rooted in either of the languages.
Okay, that's interesting. It did sound that way to me. It may not have been, but it sounded somewhat that way, just the way that you were kind of communicating it. But that's okay. That's good.
Well, I also learned French when I was growing up. So that's part of-
That could be part of my kind of-
Well, I do have a good ear. I do have a good ear.
All right, good, good, good, good. So let's move away from all that and let me stop messing with you with that, regards to that. So can you talk a little bit about how you became interested in incorporating technology into counseling?
Yes. So as I spoke about, I'm a millennial, so literally from the beginning of my education in grade school, all the way up to my doctoral study, I've been part of this whole technology involvement, especially within education. So going from staring school, literally using a chalkboard, chalk, or paper and pen, to being at UCF and using all this different technologies that's being incorporated within the classroom. And so for me, I realized that technology had evolved through the 10 years of my, or 20-some years of me being in school. And then technology has continued to grow exponentially ever since.
So for me, I was like if I'm going to go into education, I cannot shy away from technology because the generation that's coming up behind me that I will be responsible for educating and training are going to be exposed to technology at even earlier and earlier years than I was. And so I was of the mindset of I need to make this counseling thing, what I'm teaching, as exciting as possible, still challenging and supporting, but also making it exciting for this younger generation that's coming up that I will be teaching.
And so I was of the mindset of trying to figure out PowerPoints and lectures, it's going to hole the attention of these younger individuals in the program. So how do we incorporate more current, modern technology to make that learning experience more exciting? And so that's how I really started diving and trying to figure out ways to incorporate new tech. And of course, it happens to be that as I am getting ready to transition to starting my dissertation at UCF, as you know, Teach Live was being developed through the Gates Foundation grant that was awarded to the college. And so once I saw that, I was like, "Oh my gosh. This is a pretty awesome platform."
And at the time, I was co-teaching the basic counseling skills with Dr. Mark Young. And one of the things that we have constantly talked about was the frustration I was having with students staying in that role playing mode. Every single time would come, they'd be like, "Miss Olivia, I don't have anything to talk about." Or they would be laughing and not taking it seriously. So after I saw the platform, it was Teach Live at the time, and the barriers I was having with the students just lacking engagement or not taking those role plays seriously, I was like, "Huh. How can I use something like this in our classroom as we're teaching the students?" Because the teaching preparation faculty was already using it for helping students just master the classroom management. And so I was like, "We could do something similar."
So let me ask you a question. That wasn't something that was in your wheelhouse. It wasn't a part of a program that you were a part of. How did you initiate those conversations? Because I think that's really good information for students to know. How did you initiate conversations with faculty members outside of your discipline and make that really a reality so that you can start doing this, especially when it came to the work that you were doing for your dissertation and to get out?
Definitely. So I give that credit to Dr. Barden, Sejal Barden. I remember we were taking a class with her. And she took us to the Teach Live lab because she wanted us to kind of ... It was this new thing that was happening. She was like ... She took one of her classes and we went that the lab just to see a demonstration. Now, how that came to be, I don't know if it was kind of like the Teach Live staff kind of soliciting faculty to bring students in to kind of check out this new tech that's being developed, or if it was Sejal that saw it and wanted to expose the students to it.
Anyway, however it happened, we're in class. I'm seeing this thing in front of me. Literally what I did, I went to straight to Dr. Decker. I was like, "I am interested in this. Can I set up a meeting with you to talk about potentially doing something?" And I was not even thinking about my dissertation. I just wanted to know more about the technology.
All right, so again, that's about you as a student advocating for yourself with someone outside of your discipline, and also doing some collaboration with regard to.
Exactly. So being open. And I think when you talk to people who are not necessarily in technology, like in tech or IT, who incorporate a lot of technology in their work, you tend to find people who are flexible, who are okay being outside of the box, who are okay doing things in nontraditional ways. And so I've always moved like that. And I'm always welcome the challenge. And for me, I knew I needed to do ... As also thinking ahead, which one of the things that we were kind of was hammered in our heads as doc students is thinking about the end goal, which is if you're interested in academia, you got to start doing things while you are a doc student to set you up for the job search. And so I was like, "Okay, how can I make myself stand out as a doc student as I'm applying to programs?" But also marrying it with something that I was genuinely interested in. Because that was-
Right. You have to have that because then you'll burn out, and/or you'll just be no passion.
Exactly. So I got to stick with this dissertation for a year plus. I got to do something that I actually have a genuine interest in. And so it really ... I just, for me I was like, "Okay, worst case scenario is I'm told no." I go to Lisa, and I'm like, "Hey, can we have a conversation?" If she says no, all right, cool. I just go back to the drawing board and look for something else. So for me, as a doc student, I think I got desensitized to being told no. And so I was like, "I'm going to go for it."
If it works out, great. If it doesn't, that's okay. And that conversation led to me being awarded a grant to actually have access to the Teach Live program, because I was given access. I had to submit a proposal. Obviously I had to go to the counseling faculty, request permission to be able to use the program. But once everything was said and done, my dissertation topic was approved. The Teach Live team actually allowed me to use the platform free of cost because they gave me basically a grant from the bigger grant to pay for the sessions that I was going to use for my dissertation. Because it ran for the entire semester, fall of 2014.
So what was the outcomes of your work? What did you find?
So the awesome thing is both ... So I did a quasi-experimental design, like simply put, I had three sections. Two sections used the Teach Live platform, and the other just did the role plays that you do in class in the traditional way. So when I looked at skills acquisition, so using the CCS, I looked at self-efficacy, I looked at ... Then I wanted to also look at anxiety because I knew I was asking people to use a platform that had never been used before.
Right. And so let me pull you back a little bit and just say the CCS is an evaluation of counselors in training to give them feedback on what they're doing in their role.
Exactly. So evaluate, that's the instrument that I used to assess their skills development, which was obviously developed at UCF as well. So a little plug there. So at the end of everything, both groups' skills acquisition was at the same rate. So both group gained ... So their skills increased, their self-efficacy increased, and their anxiety levels decreased, which is what you want to see. But the interesting thing is the students that were using the Teach Live simulation program, their anxiety level decreased at a higher rate than those who did the traditional.
And so basically from what I took that data to show is that using this really awesome ... And this technology did not negatively impact the students' experience. So it was as good as the traditional way of training students in that basic counseling skill. So when I saw that, I was like, "Okay, so that shows that we can marry the two." Not saying get away completely from the traditional way of teaching, but we can infuse this technology in our training.
Integrate it. Right. So it can kind of support as opposed to take away from the experiences, the learning experiences of students.
So what's the most important or exciting part of utilizing this virtual simulation when you look at it from a counselor education point of view?
So for me it's about the excitement, because as you can tell, I really love what I do. Counseling, counseling education, I really believe and I'm passionate about this field. And so to be able to create a fun, challenging, yes supportive environment for my students to be able to go in and learn. And so now, at the University of West Georgia, now we have ... Which is basically a couple of generations removed from Teach Live, the UWG Simulation Lab, now we have way more ... So we can create diversity so there's diversity in the avatars that the students can use. I can do kind of a group simulation. I can do individual counseling. I can do couples. I can do family. I can do mixed different races. We can do different sexual orientation, different ... Literally, I can do same-sex couple. I can do heterosexual couples. I can do traditional family, nontraditional families, because I can mismatch the avatars in this simulation environment.
So can you tell me a little bit about how that kind of plays into reality? So when you're looking at these avatars, and you're dealing with this in that regards, how do you make sure that you're not playing a game and not just on a video game as opposed to taking this and incorporating it into something that you're doing in your real practice?
So obviously, we're doing this in class. So students are not getting this random link and being like, "Hey, go in here and play." It's structured the exact same way as I would structure class. So we come in and we have our session set up. I always, and I'm a forms person, so I always have forms for my students to have to prepare them and kind of get them to be ready for what the session is, is going to be a focus of the session, whether it's going to be a group session or whether it's going to be whatever modality.
And so the way ... Basically the simulation environment takes away the pressures of the students having to role play a client. So when they're coming into the space, all their focus they're focused on is role playing a counselor. And that is it. And so they're not having to worry about, "Oh, how do I respond. If I was married and I had a child, or if I was ... How does a 16 year old respond if another 16 year old ..." They don't have to worry about that. They're just coming in with the session objective ready to facilitate a session. And then the program, the way it's set up is going to simulate everything else. And so similar to how we would put together a vignette when we're role playing in a traditional way, I do the same thing with these sessions.
So for example, if I want to do a couples' session. And I have two adults who are coming in. I will write up, "Okay, they're going to come in and they're issues going to center around, I don't know, choice to start a family. These are the issues that they've been experiencing. This is some of the ways that they have dealt with each other." Maybe the husband is a bit timid, so he's not going to be the person talking. Maybe the wife is a little bit more verbal, so she kind of dominates the session. So setting up the characteristics of the avatars, then my students are challenged with facilitating that session. How do you navigate a conversation when you have one dominating personality over the other and so forth and so on.
So I'm able to create, design the scenario or the vignettes, and then my students come in, and literally all they're doing is being in the role of the counselor and facilitating that session. And then the rest of the group is observing the session as it unfolds. So now I have vicarious learning that's happening because now they can watch their peer facilitate this sessions. So even if they don't get an opportunity to role play, but they get to observe and they can give feedback.
Right, so let me ask you, so the avatar is able to shift depending on how the counselor responds to it?
Yes, mm-hmm (affirmative).
And it's not just this program. We have so many different programs that's out. And obviously depending which one you're using, the sim is going to look different. But yeah, we can increase the resistance. So is it going to be a client who's compliant? It's going to be a client who's resistant. It's going to be a client who's maybe a little bit aggressive, who's maybe ready to make change or not. But I can really control all those different characteristics about the client to challenge my students.
So has this evolved to the work that you're doing now, or is this coming from your dissertation? So you are now also doing this in the work that you're doing at West Georgia?
I've been able ... Again, happenstance. So as I was looking for work, UWG happened to have secured a license to have the same technology come to the university. And so through our counseling program ... Actually the college of education is housed there, so I have direct access. So I'm able to use it. Myself and my colleagues, we use it pretty much all of our skills-based classes. And now with the grant that I was awarded back in 2019, we're incorporating it in this grant for creating an innovative training model for virtual rehab counselors, potential rehab counselors.
Excellent, excellent. So listen, let's talk a little bit more about this and your role as co-chair of the artificial intelligence taskforce for ACA. We'll do that after the break. So this is the American Counseling Association version of the Voice of Counseling, so check us out after the break.
Counselors help positively impact lives by providing support, wellness, treatment. We're working to change lives. We are creating a world where every person has access to the quality, professional counseling and mental health services needed to thrive.
So welcome back to The Voice of Counseling with Dr. S. Kent Butler. We have our guest today, Dr. Olivia Uwamahoro Williams. And she's going to talk a little bit more about her experiences with technology and AI. And so please, tell me what are you looking to do as co-chair for the artificial intelligence taskforce that I created?
Yes, so first I want to say ... Just express my gratitude again, the fact that you have put this as one of your initiative this year as you're serving as ACA president, because when you reached out with that opportunity I was like, "Wait what? Is this real? Could it possibly be happening?" And so I'm appreciative of this opportunity.
Wait, let's go back. Can you also say that, "I don't know, I just had this baby and I'm not sure." Nope, yep, I'm on it. I was like take a couple of days to think about it. Nope, I'm on it.
No, because it was such an exciting thing. Again, having been out ... This is my sixth year since I've graduated from UCF. And up until now, there's still ... It's usually kind of a few people here and there who are genuinely interested in hearing things that I am passionate about, specifically around kind of this advanced tech when it comes to counselor education. And I think part of it too, when you start talking about AI or virtual simulation, people freak out and they're like, "Wait, counseling is a people field. Like we don't need robots getting involved in artificial intelligence." And I'm like that's not where I'm going with this.
And so it's kind of usually that initial hesitation to even engage in a conversation or even think about the possibilities. So myself and my co-chair, Russell, our ultimate goal is to really just increase awareness of how advanced tech can enhance what we as counselors and counselor educators already do. So it's not to replace. It's not to kind of like, "Oh, the robots are taking over counseling." It's really to show like hey, we are in the age of technology. Why not take advantage of these really awesome things that's happening and incorporating it in counseling to, again, the keyword is to enhance what we're already doing.
So there's a framework that I sometimes use. It talks about the comfort zone, and how we move out of the comfort zone into the fear zone, to the learning zone, and then go into our growth zone. So can you talk about it from that perspective? How do we help, especially counselor educators? Sometimes students as well, even though they may be involved with technology growing up, they still may be a little shy, gun shy to how to use this in a counseling perspective. So how do we reduce the fear of people who are just kind of not necessarily sure that this is the right route to go in?
Exposure. And so part of what we plan on doing is to create some kind of a centralized location where we can show ... Highlight different work that's already being done by counselors and counselor educators incorporating just really cool technology. So one, it's not necessarily you going out and doing the work, but at least hey, are you open to checking out the work that these other people are doing and the impact that it's having. Because again, I think if you just come to the table and you're like, "Hey, you need to start using this virtual simulation platform and put it your class." You don't have to start there.
It's about let's let people know one, there are a couple of us already doing it. I'm actively doing it. One thing about counselor educators, as being faculty in academia, grantship right? Grants, buy out your time so you can do things that you love. I was able to use this program to help put together a grant that was awarded, $2.2 million for five years. I think that should be motivation enough for at least junior faculty to be like, "You know what, let me figure out a way to incorporate technology."
Especially in the counseling field, because a lot of times people cannot find ways to grant money. And so you found a little niche, a little way in.
Exactly. Because collaboration, as you know, is key when it comes to especially securing those really large grants. And so are you open to collaborating, even if that's not your main area like it is mine? Are you open to bringing in maybe an instructional tech faculty to help enhance a project that you're doing? And so really taking the opportunity to just look outside. Look and see what's happening and the successes those of us who have been actively in this area have been. And also, look at the ... I feel like sometimes people look at counselors, "Oh, you're going to counseling because you don't want to make money."
We shouldn't really be pushing that message anymore because you can be very financially successful as a mental health professional. And a lot of people are creating apps and creating really cool tech to enhance, again, the experiences of their clients. And so when you're thinking about who are the people that we're serving, the reality is people want things that they can access easily. So you have these different apps that have been created that are loaded with a lot of resources and things like that for clients. So again, not saying that you're using the app to provide counseling services, but are you open to maybe incorporating that as when you assign homework assignments? Can you use that app to support the work that you're doing?
If we're talking about distance counseling, tele-mental health, I mean if this pandemic has taught us anything it's that we have to be flexible in the delivery of mental health services and the way we teach. And so a lot of people are really capitalizing off of, "Okay, we've been able to function. Maybe not the way we're used to, but we have to transition fully online for almost a whole year to deal with the pandemic." And so I feel like now that's going to be an expectation where clients are coming like, "Hey, do you offer virtual sessions? Or is that an option?" Or students are like, "I'm good with a brick and mortar, but can we also have some virtual experiences? Or can we ..."
People are coming with different expectations now. So given that that's a reality, we have to be open to figuring out a way to incorporate more tech into our work, and not just the typical Zoom. Zoom is one thing which has been great. But how do you enhance that Zoom class? If I'm sitting here and I'm teaching a group class, lecturing them for three hours is not going to be sufficient. But if I'm using my simulation lab, I can literally ... We can pull up the classroom, and the students can literally participate and put together a session to facilitate. There is ... And I hate that I can't remember off the top. It's called My Life or something? I think it's My Life. But it's a simulation. It's an online simulation that can be used for couples and family, even lifespan where there's like a virtual child that you are assigned and you use the different models and frameworks that you learn in lifespan and you see the development of your child.
So when they're at this level, how do you parent them? And depending how you're parenting them, it impacts what type of adult they become. And so that's a new little platform that I recently found and I'm going to start incorporating that in my families class because again, I want to find fun and creative ways to keep my students attention.
How are you assessing that?
How am I assessing it? So this is the thing I always do. I collect data on almost everything that I do. I always check in with my students. Anytime I'm introducing something new, I'm intentional in collecting inner data, and through conversations, through formal collection, to just see that initial reaction from my students. And if it's something meaningful, I collect data, IRB, and I collect data on it because I want to track how ... And I always introduce one thing at a time.
So if I want to do whatever it is, it's going to be one activity, and then I'm going to compare to my previous classes. So I'm looking at with the key assessments, like big assessments within the program, and also we look at the CPCE test scores, I can go back and look. I teach a couples and family course. I teach our group class. So I can go back and pull up our CPCE scores and see, "Okay, when I started incorporating this tech this year, what is the score difference between the five years prior to me starting this and then the years following?" And if I see a major improvement, I'm not going to fully attribute it to that change, but I'm like, "Hey, this experience is at least adding to the learning outcome." So I'm intentional in always double-backing and checking one with my students, but also looking at our program assessment and seeing, "Hey, are these things that we're doing actually adding to our students' learning experiences."
Okay, so let me ask you. You've been teaching now for six years, since your post. And so can you talk a little bit about your success stories? What have you heard from students who have graduated from your program so far in terms of how they have now adapted themselves into the counseling career?
So the first time I used the simulation lab, my students were like, "What is this? What is happening." After that first cohort, they literally started going to the other faculty being like, "Hey, can we use that thing that Dr. Williams used in our crisis class? Or in our diagnosis class?" Because for them, they love the safety of it all. Like being in there, you know you're practicing. You know you're not working with real clients and it's safe. And so if I mess up, I can reset it back up. I can get ... We're giving immediate feedback. And so one thing that my students like was one, it was challenging, but I felt safe and I knew it was practice.
Did it help with the imposter syndrome?
I did assess for that. So I will have to go back and maybe ask specific questions around that. But I know the main conversation was around how safe they felt. And I guess maybe it's like the fact that we have a physical lab, like the physical entry into the lab. Like you know you're going into practice. Everybody who's there is going to be evaluated, but we're here to support. And also they said it felt authentic. So when we're doing work with maybe minor clients, they're like, "You know what? I've been around middle schoolers, and that's exactly how they react." So that was kind of cool to be able to figure out how to manage a group with 12 year olds. Because they authentically reacted like 12 year olds. So I felt like if I have to facilitate a group with middle schoolers, I'll be ready to do this. So they talked about the safetyness and the authentic experience that they felt they were getting from those role plays.
So let me ask you a question. So has there ever been a situation where a kid or someone who's using this technology has something happen that they're like, "Wait a minute? There's somebody behind that. That's not something avatar. Somebody's playing around and saying something. You know my life too well." Has that ever happened?
Of course. So to help ... Anytime you're using virtual simulations, you want to maintain the suspension of disbelief. So I'm not going to talk about exactly how the technology work, because that's not important. Like you don't need to know ... What is it? The wizard behind the curtain, right? You just need to come in and do this wonderful work. So sometimes students who are interested in tech, they're like, "So how did they know? How did the students contend that I was wearing a yellow sweater today? Like what's happening? Like what are they talking about. Like it is raining outside. How did they know it was raining outside?" So sometimes students kind of pick up on those things and they're like, "Oh wait. This is kind of interesting."
And so I get them to focus on it. I'm like, "Yeah," but focusing on the session. And some of those reactions too, they realize that there's some real live things happening because sometimes the students are like, "Hey Dr. Butler. I like that shirt. Your shirt, that pattern on your shirt is really awesome. Like where did you get it from? Like what is the stuff that's on the back? Is that a elephant on your bookshelf?" And you're like, "Wait. You can see me." So then all the sudden the students were sitting up and they're taking that session seriously because they're like, "Okay, these students are engaging with me. They can hear me. They can respond to me in real time."
So there are some students who become very curious and they're like, "Dr. Williams, tell me how the tech work." I'm like, "It doesn't matter how the tech work. We're not here for that." And so because you want to maintain that suspension of disbelief to increase the positive outcome of that experience.
Okay, so I guess wow. That kind of leads into my last question for you and we can kind of fill out the rest of the hour with this. So how well is counseling field as a kind of modality, as a profession, how are good are we? How well are we incorporating advanced technology into the work that we do?
So I probably could answer this question different like pre-pandemic and post-pandemic. I would say pre-pandemic, we were moving kind of like snail paced because you have a lot, especially with mental health being at the forefront of just the conversation in this country and around the world, there's been a lot more investment from people outside of the field. So you're seeing the apps popping up. You're seeing all these different companies and people investing into mental health. And so with that has come obviously tele-mental health was kind of a thing, but not really. It was a couple of us doing it.
I believe when I was a doc student, it was only one faculty at UCF who actually was certified to do tele-mental health at the time I was there. And I'm pretty sure all of you are now certified to provide tele-mental health into provision because of the pandemic. And so pre-pandemic I feel like there was a pocket of people who definitely saw the benefits of incorporating technology and being intentional and figuring out how to enhance it, but not ... I feel like not as much as I would like to have seen. Because when you look at-
Yeah, I was doing technology that way. I started doing supervision virtually just as we were trying to test it out with the CACREP standards and things along those lines, way back [crosstalk 00:48:30]
Yeah. I mean, even with ACA, we didn't have, if you look at the code of ethics, it wasn't a lot of ... I believe it was 2016 standards where there was starting having a focus on technology and social media and things like that, where there's specific codes put in there around it. And to me, that shows where we are as a field, the fact that even as the mothership organization didn't even have an extensive code of ethics until ... And even then it was like a little blurb. It was like two areas in 2016.
But now, post-pandemic, I feel like we were forced to see, "Hey, one, this tech thing can actually work and still be productive." And so I feel like the pandemic, it's unfortunate to say this, has helped kind of catapult us, and for me, I'm biased in it, so kind of in the right direction in technology to show us like, "Hey, there is a lot of things available that can, again, the point always being enhance what we're doing." Not replace what we're doing, but enhance what we're doing.
Okay, excellent. So we're coming to the end of our hour, and I wanted to find out from you if there's anything that you would like to kind of highlight, especially with regards to the work that you're going to be doing with the AI taskforce. But is there anything that you want to get out to the viewing public that you think is essential for them moving forward with AI work and technology and virtual love of life?
Being open. As you mentioned, the things that we tell our students, the things that we tell our clients about being flexible and being open to new experiences, we have to turn around and apply it to ourselves as counselors. And I'm not saying fall in love and go crazy like I am about technology. But just being open to incorporating new things, especially if it's going to enhance our students' experiences. And also, reach out to colleagues who are already doing it. Like you don't have to start this from scratch. Reach out, talk to some of ... Like this is part of what we're doing with the artificial intelligence taskforce is to create a hub where we can show like, "Hey, we've got these people in our field already doing great things with AI and different advanced tech. If you have a question, reach out to them, because they're already doing the work. They already are familiar with the research and the data."
And also, for those who are really interested, ACA ... I'm sorry ASCA's and [inaudible 00:51:25] have a technology interest network. And so you have a small group of people there already who are coming together and having discussions around tech that you can always get involved in. So just one, just get involved. Be open to having conversations. And then start getting a little bit uncomfortable and trying new things.
Uncomfortable, nice. So that's a great way for us to kind of start into this. Know that there's so much more out there. We just kind of tipped the iceberg, sort of, whatever they call that, however they say that term. We just got to the tip of it. So there's so much more underneath that we can be doing. So thank you for being a part of our conversation today. I hope that you're having a great rest of your day and that you have inspired some people to kind of step outside of their comfort zone and tackle some of this virtual world as it were. So thank you Dr. Olivia Uwamahoro Williams. You'll have been a great guest today. And this has been The Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. Thank you for tuning into ACA and checking us out. We'll see you next time.
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