by
Joseph Peters
| Jan 05, 2023
Speaker 1:
Hello and welcome to the Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. Today we are going to listen in to a conversation between two phenomenal leaders in the mental health field, president of the American Psychological Association, Dr. Thema Bryant and President of the American Counseling Association, Dr. Kimberly Lee Frazier.
Speaker 2:
Dr. Thema Bryant is the current president of the American Psychological Association. She's a tenured professor of psychology in the Graduate School of Education and Psychology at Pepperdine University where she directs the Culture and Trauma Research Laboratory. She completed her doctorate in clinical psychology at Duke University and her post-doctoral training at Harvard Medical Center Victims of Violence Program. She has a Master's of Divinity, is an ordained elder in the African Methodist Episcopal Church.
Speaker 2:
Dr. Bryant is a past president for the Psychology of Women, a past APA representative to the United Nations, and has served on the APA Committee on International Relations in Psychology and the Committee on Women in Psychology. She has received numerous awards for her research and advocacy and is a naturally recognized leader in the mental health space. She is the host of Homecoming podcast and author of the incredible book, "Homecoming, Overcoming Fear to Reclaim Your Whole Authentic Self."
Speaker 1:
Dr. Kimberly Frazier is the current president of the American Counseling Association. She is one of eight African Americans to be elected to this role and is the recipient of ACA's most prestigious distinction of ACA fellow. Dr. Frazier received her PhD in counselor education from the University of New Orleans. She holds licensure in the state of Louisiana as a professional counselor, licensed marriage and family therapist, and certification as a nationally certified counselor. She is an associate professor in the Department of Counseling at Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center, New Orleans. Her research areas include the impact of systemic oppression and trauma on children and families of color, as well as cultural competency training in the workplace and leadership.
Speaker 1:
We are so grateful to them both for joining us today and we're thankful for our listeners for tuning in. Let's listen in.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Hi, Dr. Bryant. So good to have you with us today. Thank you for joining us. I wanted to get us together because we are both presidents of very similar organizations, so I wanted to get you here to get some of your thoughts, pick your brain, maybe get some help with some of the things I'm doing. So I wanted to start off, what was your journey to leadership since a lot of people wonder about that. So what was your journey?
Dr. Thema Bryant:
First of all, congratulations on your election, Dr. Frazier. I am so, so glad for us to be in these positions and for us to be in it at the same time. So I am looking forward to the conversation and also what will come of it for an incredible year.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Yes. Congratulations to you, too.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We know it was not without intention and sacrifice and effort and the people who supported us and so I'm really grateful.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
So you asked about my journey to leadership and journey as it relates to this role in particular?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Yes, as it relates to this role.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yes. Sure. So I actually was introduced into governance by my mentor. So Dr. Jessica Henderson Daniel is the first Black woman who was president of the American Psychological Association.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Oh wow.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
And she took me under her wing. She was president of the Women's Division Society for the Psychology of Women and invited me onto the executive team. And one of her presidential initiatives was around mentorship. So they selected a group of us that they saw potential in and met with us. And at that point I was in my early twenties, had recently graduated, and I was one of APA's first representatives to the United Nations. So APA had just received United Nations non-governmental organizational status.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
So I have such a heart for international psychology. And so, when I saw that we now had these representative positions at the UN, at first I thought, "I want to really encourage our graduate students to nominate themselves" because for that position at the UN I thought, "Oh, they probably won't pick me but maybe they'll make me someone's assistant."
Dr. Thema Bryant:
So I applied and I ended up being selected after the interview.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
So, they picked you.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yes, yes. And so, I started in division 35, the women's division and when we had this mentorship circle, we had to share what our goals were. And the women's division is division 35. So I said, "I want to be president of 35 by the time I'm 35."
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Wow.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
At 34, I was elected. I made it on time and it was a really successful year, a great year. And then people started asking me, "When are you going to run for president of the whole thing?" But my goal had really been the women's division. So I was like, "Oh, I'm not going to do that." And here it is over 10 years later. And the timing, I think, was so right for me because I'm a trauma psychologist and looking at multiple forms of trauma, whether we're talking about the pandemic or the trauma of racism. And so, seeing everything that was happening when the request came back to me of, "Are you willing to run? There are people who want to support you." I said, "Give me a minute to think on it." And then I reflected for the weekend and then got back to them and said, "The time is right. Yes, I'm willing to do it."
Dr. Thema Bryant:
And I was so blessed during the campaign, the campaign team, I called the dream team and just incredible psychologists and graduate students who ran with the vision. And I'm sure your situation was like mine where because of the pandemic we didn't have to do so much traveling. A lot of the campaign was on Zoom, right?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Yes. We couldn't even campaign. So it's very different on our side. So you just put your stuff out there.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
And just wait and see.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Vote time.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yeah. Yes.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I have some similarities with your journey with mine. I will say that you had a vision to be president of your division. I was president of the Association of Multicultural Counseling and Development and that was not the vision. I was just the helper, working and doing a lot of the work of the division. And people kept going, "I think you should do this." And I was like, "Okay. Sure, I'll do that." "I think you should do this."
Dr. Kim Frazier:
So I think it's important what you're saying is definitely just putting yourself out there. That's what I say about leadership, putting yourself out there and saying that you're willing to do it and willing to answer the call.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Right. And I love both of those pathways. There was a panel on women in leadership and psychology and all of the panelists were talking about, "Lean in and nominate yourself" and all of this. And then the last panelist was Dr. Jean Chen, who is no longer with us. But she shared that, "Advocating for myself is not how I became president of the women's division. I became president because I served." And she said, "Because I served and served well, eventually people said, Jean, you should be our president." Right? So sometimes it is taking steps if you know where you want to land and sometimes it is by just being willing to show up and serve, and the various doors will open.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I totally agree with that. That's what I tell my mentees all the time, "Just be there so that people can put you in the place that you want to be."
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
So I totally appreciate your path too of saying that you just nominated yourself. You took a chance and said, "Hey, I'm going to nominate myself and see what happens." And lo and behold they were like, "Okay. Great."
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Right.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I mean that's what you want. I hope that more people are inspired as they look at your example, and its ok to think about nominating myself.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Particularly women of color, Black women in particular nominate yourself and put yourself in those spaces if no one's tapping you to put you in those spaces, I think is important.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
And would you say, were there any unique challenges given being a Black woman too?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Absolutely.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yeah. And how did you navigate that?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
There absolutely are challenges because the misogyny of some of the stuff that you get at the division level when I was the division president and even now some of the questions that you get, I mean, I'm totally thinking, would you ask this if I was a man? Would you ask this if I was a white man?
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Right.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
And why do you feel comfortable? I think that's the other thing that hits me. Why do you feel comfortable asking that question or why do you feel comfortable questioning? I think for me, it's the questioning of the competence, the questioning of the leadership. When I was sitting in meetings with other people set in this role and that was never a question. So why is it a question now?
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Did you get some of that?
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Oh absolutely. It's so blatant. It's so obvious.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Yes.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
And I would say being underestimated, right?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Yes.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
That people assume that you don't know what you're talking about or they assume that they need to make their agenda your agenda. And also, an assumption that you will not be able to connect with a range of people is like when I was in the process, I just note that when a white person or a white man or woman is running, there are not usually questions about being relatable or how will people connect with your priorities. And so, there can be this assumption that you cannot have a broad vision or a vision that will benefit the entire field. And I believe culturally that, that is a part of what helps us to make it because we have had to navigate bi-cultural spaces. We have had to engage with people really our whole lives of different races and background and around gender. So I feel like we may be new to the role but we're not new to the dynamics. You just face it on another level.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I totally agree with that. I think the other thing that, it wasn't a shock but it was almost like when you get to this level, it's the idea that your total initiatives are all going to be about all of the things you represent versus not realizing I represent all of these people. I don't represent just the items that you see standing in front of you. I have to represent a whole range of people. We have 60, almost 60,000 members. So it's not good that I'm just going to represent my intersectionalities, I need to represent a bunch of intersectionalities.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Right.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Do you also feel some of that, because I get that all the time?
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Oh, absolutely.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
[Laughing] All the time.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yeah. It's the anxiety, the fear, and fundamentally the racism that to discuss to name racism then must assume that you are not a scientist or that you don't have an understanding of things in addition to racism. And so, it's naive, but I feel emotionally, and I'm sure you have it too, I have developed the capacity to not let it drain me.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Yes.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
You see it for what it is and then we can proceed.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I think that I do, I'm really, that's what I've become more aware of as president is to really think about, "Okay, so these are the things that may drain me, but how is that going to serve me and how is that going to serve all these people outside of the organization like my right family, my friends." All these other people who knew me and wanted things from me before this presidency and thinking about that. Because I often think when people do the questioning and the expectation that you do these other things, you do realize that I have things outside of this. I'm a full person. It's not just...
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yes. Right.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
...this person, I'm a full person.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
That's right, a full person. Which is for me why it's so important to pour into the well so that we show up to the meetings already grounded, right? Already clear and I will say one of the important things are support persons and allies who even when I would enter into meetings, people I didn't know had my number were texting me. I'm like, "Okay, that the support is here." And so, knowing that and reminding yourself of that so that when people are disrespectful or problematic or racist or sexist, not allowing that to overshadow the masses of people who are actually excited, right? Excited about what this year is going to bring, excited about your leadership. And so, I see the daggers and the arrows, but I also keep my eyes, my vision clear that there are so many more who are ready to do great work.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
That's so interesting that you said, I was just talking to one of my good friends about, because I was asking about something else completely committee work or something and she was just like, "I hope that you're staying focused and not being distracted because a lot of this is the distraction from the things that you really need to be focused on." And she really brought it to the point of saying, "You were chosen for a reason so it must be time for you to be here. So I don't want you to get distracted in your time and doing the work you are supposed to do."
Dr. Thema Bryant:
It's so true that you're chosen on purpose and the timing is significant, and also the time will go fast, even like this president-elect year. I'm like, "It's over?"
Dr. Kim Frazier:
It's over. [laughing]
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Right, exactly. So it's like that eyes on the prize, eyes on the prize and do what we came here to do and protecting your energy and protecting your peace so that it doesn't get, because we get called upon by so many directions and everybody wants just an hour. I just need an hour of your time, I just need an hour of your time. These hours are sacred. So yeah, just be intentional.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
So how do you do your self-care and wellness? What are some things that you do to ground yourself? Because I know for me, I really ground myself with my core group of people. I've given them instructions that I'm not to talk about anything that relates to the presidency, the organization or any of that so that we're focused on what we're focused on. And then I tell them, if I ask you, because some of the people are my mentors and stuff. So I say, "If I ask you something about that, you can only give me 10 minutes to lament and ask those questions and then I have to go back to what are we talking about."
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Because the other thing is I think you also have to be mindful as we're talking about being in this space and it's so short that you're being prepared for another thing. You're being prepared for something else, you're being positioned and prepared for something else. So can't, the time, what you're being prepared for is so much, it's great, right.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
On top of this greatness, there's another greatness happening. So you have to make sure you're prepping and having all your skills that you need to get when you get to the next level of greatness, right?
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Right.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
So anyway, I want to throw it back to you. I know I went off.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yeah, no, I love that and I love the boundary-setting. Boundaries are such a gift and are so necessary. So I would say in part what you're naming of, so I talk about is community care or social support, but having the real ones, the people in position where it's mutual, it's reciprocal and I can be absolutely honest and I have a sisterhood circle called Gathering and Gifted Women. I'm the only one that's a psychologist but in all different disciplines brilliant, compassionate. And so, we get together once a month and it's such a time of pouring, of giving and receiving and sharing and laughing. So one of the things that nourishes me. And then even within APA, those who both, those who I knew before the election and those who I've built connection with afterwards of keeping people close who share the vision and have a heart for doing the work of us getting where we are, where we're trying to go.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
And one of the things that I shared when I was in my process was, in order for transformation to be sustainable, we have to have multiple people in multiple positions, right, because we are a blip on the screen and then our time will be up. But the key thing is, we have people who share these principles and priorities, who are the heads of different divisions, different sections, who are in our council, who hold these various roles that are our staff members.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
And so, when we move in that way, that's how we can really have the sustainable change that we would, the sustainable growth that we would like. And then I'll just also add the more traditional self-care that we think about in terms of go lay down, get some sleep. And I will say it's challenging for me because I'm in California and our headquarters is in DC and just a lot of folks are on the East Coast.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
So it's just figuring out that sleep thing and nourishing, eating good foods, getting away from the computer and going for a walk or I love dancing. So those kinds of things. And my kids, of course, keep me having, being holistic, having a full life because they know nothing about the strategic plan.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
[laughing] What do they care?
Dr. Thema Bryant:
[laughing] Right, exactly. Exactly. They just want to have fun. And so, my eldest is a senior in high school, so we're working on college applications and then my youngest is into animation and all of these things. So it helps to stay balanced. And then the last one I'll just mention is my spiritual practices to nourish my spirit at the start of the day so that when I show up in spaces, people will often say like, "Oh, you're so positive, or how do you keep a good energy about you?" And I think it's about watering yourself, watering that garden so that when I show up, I already have something, right? I already have something I'm holding onto. Yeah.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I totally mirror what you're saying in the sense that I love that you're watering yourself. I think that's so great. That's what I'm working on too. How can I continue to do the spiritual pieces along with the wellness piece so that again, you're grounded, so that you're not burned out, so that you're not walking away from the position. I'm so glad I'm leaving this position. A lot of people I've heard were like, "I'm glad I'm not president." You're like, why? What is that? I want to walk away and be like, "I did what I came to do. I feel like I moved the needle and I can hand this off to the next person and be okay with that." Right.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Right.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
And I can step back of-
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Because I think that's, I'm writing this column about what's your why in Counseling Today because I want people to really reinvestigate why are you doing, why are you answering the call of leadership and counseling and the counseling profession and just mental health profession. Why are you answering the call? Because I find that a lot of people get hung up. It's like they don't have the passion for it anymore, but they feel like they have to stay in it for whatever reason that is. Or that it becomes the totality of what they do. And so, I really wanted people to investigate what is your why. Why are you doing it? And is this the right fit for you? Is the current thing you're doing the right fit? Or is there something else? Because I say a thousand times, there's so many things that we need people to do. There's so many things.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Right. Yes.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
You don't have to do this thing, we can put you somewhere else. We need you to be somewhere else, right? So how can we get you the best fit so that you're passionate and you're not holding up the process, I guess is you're not stagnating the process. So tell me some of your thoughts on that from your end.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yeah, it's so important. I think the reality is so many in our fields are burned out. We have been operating really at an accelerated rate where whereas when the world slowed down, those in our field were pulled upon even more. And so, whether they are educators, researchers, consultants, practitioners, people have been giving a lot. And so, I think it's important raising this question of remembering your why. And in the first article that I had to write for our magazine, I was dealing with this piece of us nourishing ourselves and not forgetting ourselves. I think many people who enter our fields care a lot for people. And so, it can be a priority of self-sacrifice for my students or for my clients or for the research, and we can lose sight of ourselves, right? So I think remembering your why phrases this homecoming, coming back to yourself. So yeah, it's so important because if we have the CV or the impressive resume and have the awards and positions, but we're empty, drained, bitter, we're not serving ourselves and ultimately we're not serving anybody else. So yeah, it's really important.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I just thought it was an important question to raise because I was meeting so many other leaders who had gone to the pinnacle or whatever it was in their fields, but they still weren't fulfilled. And it's, you're thinking, but you, you're at the top of your field, you're doing all these things, so what's happening? So it got me to thinking, then what's your why? What are you doing it for? And you're saying remembering why you're doing it. And I also think being able to transition to another space, that doesn't mean you're less of a leader, it just means you're leading differently. And I think a lot of people tend to have a rough time with the transition part I guess, that's what I'm finding. It's the transition piece.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Oh, it's true. So one thing, the first thing you were talking about is when people are chasing something and believe it's going to be outside of themselves. When I make this amount of money or once I get tenured or once I'm elected, then everything's going to fall into place and then they get there and it's empty because that inner process, and I'm sure you discovered what I discovered when I first graduated, I just assumed people who entered into this field had done their work, but some people have skipped themselves and just went to work, right? [laughing]
Dr. Kim Frazier:
[laughing] Right.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
So it's like, yeah, the thing you're looking for is you. You're not going to find it that way, right. And then the second piece, when you're talking about the transitions and letting go, I think it goes back to when there's that emptiness, then we have made the role or the position or the status, our worthiness. So then I can't let that go because then who am I? Right?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Right.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
And so, it's like, build a life, build a life.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Build a life, build you.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
In the you that you want to be.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Right.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Something.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Yeah, I think I'm just struck by that. I think that's the one thing I'm struck by. Now that we are wrapping up, I wanted to ask you, since there's so much work we could do together between our two organizations, what do you visualize as interprofessional work with mental health professionals?
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Right. I think so the umbrella that I'm really focusing on are is trauma, grief and oppression. And I think that's where it is, and that is what is happening and it is massive, and I know so many people who are full practitioners, who are full, a lot of programs, especially if we offer the online versions, are trying to up to capacity.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
And then even around research the urgency of us needing to know what works and to understand how to transform not only individuals but communities. And so, what I think about in terms of our work or our interdisciplinary work is one, combining efforts to really address on a collective level the mass trauma, grief and oppression that people are facing, that communities are facing. And then another piece, I think, which is so important is advocacy.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Yes.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Because one of the things I discovered with the role at the UN is when you're one organization there's only so much of a ripple you can make. But when we will build coalitions with other health professions, physical and mental health professions and then we could say as a collaborative, this is what we are standing for, this is what we are requesting. We can just have a greater impact. And so, both our statements to the media and social media and in terms of advocacy, I think there is a great opportunity for collaboration.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I would agree. I don't know why the organizations don't collaborate more because it just seems like we're all for the same thing. We all want the right same things. So we get there sooner by collaborating versus we are going to do our thing and you're going to do your thing. I'm all about partnerships and partnerships that make sense in the sense of we're all doing that, why aren't we partnering?
Dr. Thema Bryant:
That's right.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
So that we can combine our resources. We have resources. You have resources. Why are we not doing that?
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
It just seems so obvious.[laughing]
Dr. Thema Bryant:
[laughing] It does, right. So I look forward to us exploring that and looking at making it happen.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Absolutely. We are going to make it happen, Dr. Bryant, it's going to be me and you.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yes, one hundred percent.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
It will be me and you until July one, okay.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
That's it. We're going to make it happen. I love it.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
That's my goal. So I'm going to go back to my CEO and say that this is what we need to do.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Right. Yes, that let's look at our advocacy priorities and I'm sure they're going to overlap and then do the work.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here with us. Dr. Bryant. I appreciate you so much. I am just so full from our conversation. You keep me like this grounded me a lot in the sense of, because I'm four months in and so, I hope that this will help ground you when you're four months in. [laughing]
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Yes, it definitely has. I'm so glad to connect with you and I look forward to it at some point meeting in person.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
We will.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
But until then we will continue to hold each other up at our organizations.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Absolutely. When you're in DC let me know because we're in DC.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
All right. I sure will.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Absolutely. Thank you so much.
Dr. Thema Bryant:
Thank you. You are welcome.
Speaker 1:
Thank you again to our listeners for joining and thank you to Dr. Bryant and Dr. Frazier. We hope this conversation left our listeners inspired and uplifted like it did us. Be sure to subscribe to the Voice of Counseling on Apple and Google Podcasts, and you can follow ACA on social media to get updates about all our upcoming episodes. To join the ACA and get exclusive access to all of our member benefits, check out counseling.org. Thanks again, and we hope everybody has a great day.
Speaker 5:
ACA provides these podcasts solely for informational and educational purposes. Opinions expressed in these podcasts do not necessarily reflect the view of ACA. ACA is not responsible for the consequences of any decisions or actions taken in reliance upon or as a result of the information and resources provided in this program. This program is copyright 2023 by the American Counseling Association. All rights reserved.