by
Joseph Peters
| Aug 04, 2022
Christa Butler:
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of season two of The Voice of Counseling podcast. I'm Christa Butler from ACA.
Emily St. Amant:
And I'm Emily St. Amant.
Christa Butler:
Joining us today is ACA's 71st President, Dr. Kimberly Frazier, who is here to speak with us about herself, the profession, and what members can expect during her year as president. She is one of eight African Americans to be elected to this role for the American Counseling Association. Dr. Frazier was awarded the American Counseling Association's most prestigious distinction of ACA Fellow. Dr. Kimberly Frazier received her PhD in Counselor Education from the University of New Orleans. She holds licensure in the state of Louisiana as a professional counselor, as well as a licensed marriage and family therapist. And she is certified as a nationally certified counselor. She is an associate professor in the Department of Counseling at the Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center, New Orleans. Her research areas of interest include the impact of systemic oppression and trauma on children and families of color, as well as cultural competency and training in the workplace and leadership. Dr. Frazier, thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Thanks for having me.
Christa Butler:
Let's start off with, if you could just share a little bit about yourself and share with us, what are some of those defining moments and experiences and relationships that helped you along the way in becoming who you are today?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I can't emphasize enough my mom, she really supported my curiosity and answered all my questions when I asked them even when it was hard answers to it, like why you shouldn't walk into a store with your hands in your pocket, or why somebody didn't call on me in class? She was really good about that and really meeting me where I was. So I can't emphasize that enough. She really is my guidepost for a lot of stuff. My other defining experience was Xavier University, an HBCU, the only Catholic Black university with a Saint, St. Katharine Drexel. That experience was so affirming in a time I needed it because I grew up in the suburbs. So there weren't a lot of people like me. I was one of one in classes a lot, because I was in honors classes. So to go to a university that had a bunch of me in it and that they were passionate and they were Black nerds and it was cool and you could just do it.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
And then just learn about Black culture and New Orleans culture in an environment that was so affirming, so nurturing, was amazing. I can't say that enough. It was just like utopia really. And it really helped my foundation when I went to University of New Orleans, which is a PWI. I had the foundation that my mom gave me. I had the foundation from Xavier, so I was able to adjust a lot better. And I just really use that when I'm, again, in places and spaces where I'm one on one, or my intersectionalities are not represented, I really lean into that. And Xavier just taught us to be unapologetic about the spaces in which we occupy and to know that you're supposed to be there and this is how you show up. So Xavier, definitely.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Some of the relationships, there's so many, we don't have time for all of the relationships. But I would say Dr. Lewis Paradise was the one who got me to go to the University of New Orleans. I was looking at other universities and he really found out at a counseling conference actually, was like, "Hey, I hear you're looking for a university. Why aren't you at University of New Orleans? We can't let talent go these other places." So he was instrumental in that. He was also instrumental in really sparking my interest in being an administrator and seeing what that was and picking his brain for that. And he really used his power and privilege to shut a lot of stuff down that I was experiencing in grad school, where people were putting up obstacles and microaggressions and stuff like that. He is the provost of the university, really worked behind the scenes to make sure that wasn't necessarily happening.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Dr. Zaras Watson, a great friend of mine, but a former professor, like family at this point. Was the one professor in my doc program who saw me and really created opportunities and created spaces for me to spark my passion in research, he was the first one to say, "You're a research designer." And it was like, "What? I am." And to have someone to say that about you and really foster that was just so amazing to have that. One of my good friends in counselor education who's no longer with us, Dr. How Stevens, was one of these people when I was having trouble at Clemson, White male with all this privilege, used his privilege and power to make sure that I had some advocate in a lot of the places and spaces that I did not have at Clemson, because I walked into Clemson thinking, oh, Clemson University and was like, oh, Clemson University in some ways. And he really used his privilege and power when he didn't have to.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
And he definitely checked up on me and made sure stuff was happening. So I can't thank him enough for that. I miss him all the time. He would be so excited to see this moment, this face. I wish he was here to see it. And Dr. Barbara Swervy. So I was at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs. This was not my first rodeo with a job, but she was so good at navigating the politics of the department and the politics of being a professor and really doing classroom management. And she was seamless, it was seamless for her. And she showed me how to do that. I had people who had done it, but to see how she did it and just the way she carried herself in the classroom and in the spaces of the department was so amazing. And I model myself after her so much and we are still good friends.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
And I can't not talk about my time at Indiana University. So that was the first time I saw Black professionals, young Black professionals that were doing things that I was doing, I think at, in New Orleans, yes, you have that, but it was in such abundance. They were in a different discipline, they were all in higher ed. But to see us at the same point in time, because many of them had just gotten their PhDs or they were working to finish it. And to have that in 10, 15 people that were doing the same thing and working at Indiana, that was so invaluable to me to have people that were like me to bounce that off of and to meet people in other disciplines that it feels like a silo sometimes with counseling, like this is our island, but they had their own island and to connect with that. And I'm still good friends with a lot of those people and they're doing such wonderful things, but to see that was good for me. And it really helped create a lot of the foundation that I have now.
Christa Butler:
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I'm curious how the relationships and the experiences that you've had impacts your passion for mentorship.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
It impacts it so much. I was just talking about this with one of my colleagues. So the reason why I want to, one of my spotlights that I want to focus on as president is mentoring is because good mentoring is so hard to find. And I had mentoring, but I think had I had a mentor who was in say higher ed, or in that was an administrator, I would've been an administrator because that's my mindset. I always think as an administrator. Zaras Watson tells me all the time, you are such an administrator. You're so good at this, because I'd look at the details, I'm thinking about how to move it forward in that way. I think had I had that, I would've been an administrator definitely, but I was mentored into this profession and I love it. It's just how your mind works. And so I wanted to really do that for people and to help people understand I wouldn't be here without mentoring.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
So I want to be able to pay that forward and give that back and be the mentor, or have skills that I wish some of my mentors would have had for me, and definitely tell my mentees, I don't want you to do what I do, I want you to do what you want to do. So whatever that is, how can I help you get there? You may not want to be a leader in counseling. That's fine. You may not want to be a professor in counseling. That's cool too. How do we get you where you want to be? How can I help you with that? And that's really what I'm trying to do. Because I had great mentors and I had... I wouldn't be here. I can't say that enough. I wouldn't be here in this space without the mentors I had.
Emily St. Amant:
Yeah. I think that we all need that reminder sometimes that no one succeeds alone and that sometimes it's easy to see someone becomes successful in their career and you have no idea how many people were behind them, supporting them, encouraging them, showing them the way. So I think that, that's an important reminder that we all need guidance and we all need to be there to help others. My favorite quote ever is, "We rise by lifting others." So when we support other people, we're really actually, we're helping ourself too. So I think that, that's just so apparent that, that's been your experience and I'm so excited to see what you do with the ACA with that experience and with that passion. And so leading into just being a counselor, hearing a little bit more about what your counseling experience has been like, what do you enjoy most about being a counselor, being a counselor educator, and maybe some challenges or things you don't like so much.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I will start off with the things that I love. So the things that I love when your clients get it or your students, it clicks for them, or they use that new skill that you've been teaching and they apply it. That's when I get the spark and I'm like, you got it, you got it. That keeps me going. To see my students, my former students in all these different places after they find out I'm president of American Counseling Association, I've received so many emails and calls and I hear that they're supervisors and directors of stuff and getting their PhD and doing all these wonderful things. It's so great to know that you played a role in that. You have a little bit of peace of that. That's so amazing. I love that. That makes me emotional to hear stuff like that. And to hear that they have stories about you and can remember stuff that you did, that you are like, what? You remember that, or I'm glad I made that. And you just don't realize the impact that you make for people. And so I love that part.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
The part that I don't like is that we still have so far to go in justice, diversity, equity, inclusion. So many people think it's done and it's not done. People are still microagressed, marginalized, even people within the profession are doing that. So it's like, that's the part that I don't like. That's the part that I know that it's important for me to be in this space so that I can serve as the inspiration, the symbol and help somebody else be galvanized to be the next leader and that sort of thing. So, that's the part I don't like, because even I get that all... And you're like, what? We're still here, we're still doing this kind of thing.
Emily St. Amant:
Yeah. I think as counselors, it's important to remember we're people too. And we grow up and we're raised in a society with certain cultural values and norms. And so that's why it's important for us to all to look at our own privilege and how we're impacting others.
Christa Butler:
Absolutely. And to spend some time in reflection and to self-examine. And so that brings us to our next question, Dr. Frazier, if you could tell your younger self, anything about the profession that you didn't know then that you now know, what would it be?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
That's such.... Oh my goodness, when I think about that. That there's so many industries and organizations and avenues for our counseling skills to be. When I was coming through as a master's student, I only visualized consulting or teaching or clinical work. And now I see that there's so many places that you can use the counseling skills, because I used my counseling skills when I was working as the director of graduate student enrollment and matriculation, I was using counseling skills there, but I don't think that, that was implicitly said in the classroom, or in when you're talking to your professors and that's what I would tell my younger self. You need to expand your mind. You don't have to just think this one narrow or these three narrow things. There's more stuff that you can do and be a part of.
Christa Butler:
That's a really good point, a really good point. I also think counselors should also recognize that it's important to honor the space that you're in, in that moment in your career. I often see so many students and new professionals and there's this pressure to know what it is that you want to specialize in. And you can't... Some people maybe, but it takes time to really nurture your interest and to nurture your skills. And I think it's important to first, like you said, to recognize that there's so many ways in which we can use our counseling skills and to also honor where you are in that moment in your career.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Yeah. Yeah. I think respecting the journey. I tell my students all the time, it's going to be a journey and that your journey is not going to be the same journey as this other student, but respect your particular journey.
Emily St. Amant:
Absolutely.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
And give yourself depth and breath to have the journey-.
Christa Butler:
Absolutely.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
... that's really what it is, just have the journey and not the only person you're competing against is yourself. That's what I tell them all the time. You're just competing against yourself. You're not competing against anyone else. So, that's your path.
Emily St. Amant:
Absolutely. And I think that a lot of people don't know what opportunities they're going to have. And so I think it's important to keep an eye out and be open. And I think, was it Amy Poller that said, "Say yes and figure it out later," or was that maybe Tina Faye? But I think that's that's what you've done here to be our president, you've said yes, and you're going to figure it out. And I think that this is not the first time you've done that. I'm sure.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
No, there's many times, even at Indiana when they were like, hey, we want to make you the director of graduate student enrollment and matriculation. Okay. Yeah. And thinking to myself, what does that mean? What does that mean? What am I going to be responsible for kind of thing. I think that you should be able to take the leap, take the leap and bet on yourself. That's the most important thing, bet on yourself because it'll come, it'll definitely come, or you'll find the resources to figure out how to get it going. But don't turn something down because if you close that door, that could be the one thing that leads you to the next door that you're looking for. But if you close it, you'll never get there.
Emily St. Amant:
That's some great advice. So next question that we have for you are, what are some hopes that you have for the ACA as our 71st president?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I really want to be an inspiration or a symbol for those who need to see themselves. That's what Dr. Beverly O'Brien and Dr. Thelma Daley did for me, sitting in the chair and saying, what do I want to do? And just looking at, this is what Dr. Thelma Daley's doing. Oh my goodness, I can do that. That's a whole profession kind of thing. And then looking at Dr. Beverly O'Brien and seeing her be her authentic self on stage, I remember that ACA conference so vividly because I was in the midst of my PhD program. And it was one of those things where people were telling you to make yourself smaller, and you're not what we're looking for. And I don't know why you're doing these things. You're so different. I definitely felt like I was very different in my PhD program, but looking at her and I said, but I can be because look at her. And she's president, she's a past president, she's here kind of thing.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
And so that really sparked me to say, nope, just be yourself and do that. So I hope that I can do that for other people, because it was so important for me. It kept me going in a time that I needed it the most. So I hope that I can do that. I hope I can inspire the next generation, the next leaders to come on through and do that. And don't be afraid, be unapologetic about the space, unapologetic about what you're thinking, because there will be a space for you, and if not, create it, no is not the answer, it's how can I get you to say yes? That's how you should look at, how can I get you to say yes? Literally. And just moving the needle as it, for diversity, equity, inclusion, as it relates to our strategic plan for ACA, moving the needle so that we have more inclusion of our professional counselors, of our students, of all the people who are members of the organization, and really allowing helpers to understand that wellness is non-negotiable, you need it.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
That's my hope with my initiatives and just to serve as a symbol and inspiration, because that was so important for me.
Christa Butler:
So speaking of your initiatives, can you share with us a little bit about what members can expect doing your year as president?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Sure. So I have three areas. So one of my areas is Jedi, because I am a star wars fan. I'm like they made this for me, this is what it is, but it's justice, equity, diversity and inclusion is one of the folk eye, wellness and self-care is another spotlight. And the final one is mentoring, because all three of these are important to me, I wouldn't be here without them. And I want to really spotlight it with all the things that are going on. I think these are important things for us.
Emily St. Amant:
I think that, that's very exciting and to see you focus on the mentorship, especially, because I think it's just, we all need a mentor. We all need to, once you move a little farther on your career, to give back to is so important to do. And transitioning to our next question here. What are some of the things that you're most excited about for the profession?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
I'm so excited about the Counseling Compact. I am so excited, we have 16 states. Yes, Louisiana said yes to it. I'm excited about that. Because we've been talking about this since I was a student. So to see this come full circle and to see this to be in fruition is so amazing. So I'm excited about that. I hope other states join so that we can have these professional privileges in more states. So, that's exciting. I'm excited for these future leaders, because they are really looking at the various avenues counseling can be in. I'm excited for these future clinicians. They are so, so savvy. They're more versed than I was when I was in school. And I love that they are out there thinking it through and thinking about multiple money streams and thinking about multiple ways they can be in counseling and show up.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
It's just, I remember having a conversation with one of my now mentees, but saw her at ACES and was like, "Who told you about these multiple money streams? What made you say I'm going to just do multiple money streams?" And she said, "That was my mindset. That's always been my mindset." I was like, man, if I could have been you as a masters student, where could I have been kind of thing? So I'm really excited about that. I think the challenges are... Again, the diversity, equity, inclusion, having true allies in the fight of that, having people know how to be a true ally is a challenge. Creating opportunities for new voices, new leadership, diversity and leadership is also a challenge, because a lot of times we get the same leaders. So it offers the same voices. And not that they're not great leaders, it's just, we need new voices, new infused youth and people who have a different lens to move the profession forward so that it's inclusive. If we have the same voices, that's not very inclusive and I really want the inclusivity.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
So, that's a challenge. That's something that I'm hoping to overcome. That's why I picked African American females to be my presidential interns so that they could see this in real-time and really ask the questions and that sort of thing, and tap some people that aren't the norm leaders. I have a cabinet that's very different from a lot of other presidents because I was intentional about that. So I think that's part of the challenges that we have.
Christa Butler:
Dr. Frazier, it has been great speaking with you and we look forward to having you back on as to potentially doing your own episodes. But before we wrap up, we want to ask one more question. When you reflect on your journey of becoming Dr. Kimberly Frazier, what sparks joy for you? What are some of those things that sparks joy for you when you reflect on your journey?
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Just the sheer determination I had and just not letting... When people told me no, I was like, I think I could change your mind, but having the audacity to think that, I think that, that was really it, having the audacity to think that and to challenge people in such a way is the thing that sparks joy, because it's full circle. This is beyond my wildest dreams, and to be president in a time that I'm living in this city in which I got my degrees and to be able to see Xavier University every day, I pass it every day, is just such a full circle moment. And I stand as a testimony for all those who are like, I don't know if I'm able to do it. I don't know if there's a space for me. I am a testimony that there is space for people that are not the norm, that are different.
Christa Butler:
The message I'm taking from that is have the courage to dare to do something different and to dare to do something that maybe you didn't imagine that you could and just have the courage to just try and to see where things go.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Yeah. Have the courage to just stand by yourself and do what you want to do.
Christa Butler:
Absolutely.
Dr. Kim Frazier:
Regardless of what other people tell you.
Christa Butler:
Yes. Love it. Thank you so much, Dr. Frazier, for joining us. This has been another episode of The Voice of Counseling season two. Tune in to future episodes. And in case you missed it, check out Dr. Frazier's episode from season one, with Dr. Eskin Butler, you can find us on Apple Podcast and Google Podcast.
Speaker 4:
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