by
Joseph Peters
| Apr 08, 2022
Voiceover:
Welcome to the Voice of Counseling presented by The American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is Coping Skills for a Stressful World and features Dr. Michelle Muratori.
Welcome to the Voice of Counseling from The American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and joining us today is Dr. Michelle Muratori, who co-authored Coping Skills for a Stressful World: A Workbook for Counselors and Clients and she wrote that with Dr. Bob Haynes. Michelle is working currently in Baltimore, Maryland as an Assistant Director of School Support at the John Hopkins Center for Talented Youth and a Faculty Associate in John Hopkins School of Education in Masters of Science in Counseling Program.
Michelle earned her MA in Counseling Psychology from the Northwestern University and her PhD in Counselor Education from the University of Iowa. Passionate about training counselors, she was honored with John Hopkins University Alumni Association Excellence in Teaching Award in 2014. Michelle is a long-time member of the American Counseling Association and has presented at many national conferences. Most recently, she presented the opening keynote at the 2021 ACA Virtual Conference Experience with Dr. Gerald Corey, Jude Austin II, and Julius Austin on the topic of counselors self-care.
So as we even start off, let's talk about that. Self-care, what does that mean to you, Dr. Muratori?
Oh, my gosh. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm sorry that Bob couldn't be here today, but we both felt really honored to have this opportunity.
Gosh. Self care, what does it mean to me? I think self-care, honestly, is more important than ever. With all the stressors that we've all been facing. And it really is our ethical mandate, I think, because I'm really concerned about the vicarious trauma we're seeing. I think counselors are under a lot of strain. So, for me, I guess the way that I see self-care might look very different than a you see self-care or another counselor would see self-care. I think that it not only includes things like taking care of our bodies and our souls and our minds and getting enough rest. For me, I have to have enough sleep or I just cannot function. However, I don't do self care perfectly as evidenced by my Diet Coke.
It's part of my self-care. No. It's funny people ask me about that. All my students know that I always have my Diet Coke and I guess I'm in the pre-contemplation stage there. I am not ready to give up my Diet Coke. But I guess the point is to say that self-care is not this perfect thing where we always do it perfectly, but I think we do need to try to our best to make sure we're nourishing our bodies and doing things like that. But also for me, it's also about drawing boundaries. I think that's something that's important like-
To have an actual acknowledgement that you are trying to be self-caring, maybe it's not because you said everybody's different. Everybody does different things. You talk about what you gravitate towards like one of the things being the Diet Coke, which I don't understand why people drink Diet Coke or Coke anyway. They're both, I mean, there's a difference in taste for sure. I don't know what that does.
But anyway, so self-care is that something that is more of a concept that if you acknowledge it and at least try to do something you are of taking a step towards wellness or things along this line or is there a particular thing that you have to hit a benchmark in order to say that, "Hey, I hit self-care."
Well, it's interesting. I think that it's helpful if everybody would come up with their own self-care plan. And I think that may look very different for every person, because I think we all have different ways of re-energizing and kind of avoiding burnout. For example for me, I work long hours and I discovered that no matter what happens in the day, I need to come home and maybe watch a funny show before I go to bed or something. I don't know, The Daily Show or something like that. I don't know because-
You can pick your mind off of the world in the day.
Yes, absolutely. It's so-
Yeah, a little bit mindless.
Right, right, right. So, in terms of that, because a lot of times people in their self-care, they try to model somebody else's behaviors, what somebody else does. And that you're saying is probably something that we should pull back from. You have to find out where you need to be in order for your self-care to be able to kind of take off.
Right. You mentioned the self-care book, I co-authored the book with Gerry Corey and then Jude and Julius Austin. And we asked, I think, it was 52 different counselors in the field, counselor educators, counselors in the field to write a piece about self-care. And it wasn't us how well they do it, but it also was what are the challenges? And I was really good at representing that view because it is challenging for me and we don't always do it perfectly. But I do think that if we have that expectation that we're going to do it perfectly, it's that all or nothing thinking. It kind of sets us up to-
To not it up at all, right?
And so, I think, just as like we would work with the client on a goal, I think we consider our own goals for self-care. And it also means that sometimes we're not going to do it as well, but we need to not get stuck and keep moving forward.
That's great. That's great. So, maybe that's a little bit of a lead in. So, you and Dr. Haynes wrote this book. And so, tell us a little bit about Coping Skills for a Stressful World. What does that work look like and what are you all doing?
Okay. Well, if I can briefly tell you how it came to be.
Yeah. It was Gerry Corey kind of put us together on that project. Bob and I had worked together with them on the Supervision book, so I knew Bob. But both, Bob and I, separately have known the Coreys for years. And so, I think Gerry was saying, "Hey, this might be a good project for you to work with Bob on." And to give you a little bit of his background, he, for many years was the Training Director of a clinical psychology internship program in a hospital. And he always was really interested in the concept of resilience and why some people seemed to be just like really resilient and others had a harder time with it. Now separately, I also was really interested in resilience, positive of psychology, the strength-based approaches and all of that.
And so, anyway, we started talking and I just want you to think about the timing of this. It was in 2017 after the 2016 election. In fact, I remember we were at an ACA Conference and we started to talk about this. And I had to say, Dr. Butler, this, it was really therapeutic to just get together and talk about, "Oh, my gosh. What is going on here?" I mean, on a daily basis, norms were being upended. We got our share of tweets. Definitely-
I liked the way you said that. Norms were being upended.
I'm trying to be careful here. But I mean, there was so much going on and it seemed all of the stressors were just being amplified. And then of course, the impact on marginalized populations in particular, who are already being disenfranchised. It was even more, it was with all the Muslim bans and all.
Yeah. All the things that were happening.
So, anyway, we were thinking, "Gosh, we're feeling pretty helpless about this." And Bob had written, had self-published a book years before about crisis because that was part of his expertise. And it was for the counseling profession. It was just more, I think, for the lay audience. And he thought, "I'd really like to do something with this." As we were just brainstorming, what would be helpful?
We thought if we could give counselors a toolbox of maybe out of session exercises or maybe therapeutic homework that might be a real contribution. Because what it is, it's like we're trying to help other people process their pain. And we were thinking, both Bob and I, as well as counselors, we've had benefit of training, learning, coping skills. What about a lot of people who have not had the opportunity or access to counseling where they haven't been able to learn resilience and coping skills. So, that's really what that was about for us.
Wow, wow, wow. So, you wrote this and I'm assuming that you kind of talked about what types of activities would go into the book.
What are some of your favorite?
Okay, well, I definitely there, I know that I lean more towards the more creative approaches like the use of metaphor. For example, there's this one exercise, I think we call it like Bridging the Grand Canyon. And when I thought of that, I was thinking, sometimes there's almost the Grand Canyon between a person and then the goal they want to reach. It almost it feels like unattainable and sometimes people feel immobilized from even moving towards that goal.
And so, it was like this guided exercise helping the person to almost build the infrastructure towards that. Looking at what are the constraints, the real and the perceived constraints from moving towards the goal. What would happen if you didn't achieve this goal? Would be okay? To really kind of unpack it and explore it. And then, if you encountered challenges along the way, what would that look like? How could you get around those? And so, anyway, that for me is I have to say it maybe it was one of my favorites to create. That doesn't necessarily mean though that that's what is best for a particular client.
Right. So, you talk about creating it. So, these activities that you put into the book, you were looking at them in terms of how people can kind of deal with different crises, not crises so to speak, but things that were stressful for them, especially. So, if I'm looking at the Grand Canyon piece, if I'm looking at that, so as a client, I may be looking out at this vast array of land and see this particular rock structure over here or this mountain top over here and all these other things that you see when you go to the Grand Canyon. But all I really see is that space that I can't get across.
And so, that is the stress. And so, it's finding ways to limit that because that's mentality, so that I can say, "Okay, there's other ways that I can take in this beauty." That make sense?
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And maybe it's a way of looking at things in a different way. And again, I do want to stress that that particular exercise might not at all be what one person needs. And we really try to do all kinds of activities and exercises that represented the many different theoretical perspectives, including things like CBT, solution focus, motivational interviewing, narrative therapy.
And this is kind of funny, but Bob, one that he really talks about that he likes is taking a social media break. And honestly, in today's world, I can see the value of that. But he was saying, "Take a break for a month." And I thought, "A month?"
… I'm not on Facebook or Twitter or anything, but I know that some people it's like they look at that and say, "No way." But maybe, you could modify it. So, we developed these exercises with the assumption that, who's the consumer? It's going to be counselors who are well-trained, who have clinical judgment and they decide. And they can even modify the exercises, so that it fits their client. Yeah, anyway.
Right. So, when you think about it, the different activities that you all created for this book, how do you want people to come to this book? How do I look at this book as a counselor per se, because you're saying it's open to both counselors and clients. How do I look at this book and make it useful for myself? What was your hope for people who were reading your book?
Right. Well, it really is geared for counselors and counselors would pull from these different exercises to give to their clients. But I think homework, if you want to call it homework. That's a bad word for a lot of people. It's not homework in the traditional sense of, "This is right, this is wrong and you get a grade for it." Call it what you'd like, therapeutic homework.
So, the way I think you case it as activities outside of therapy.
That's right. And so I think, it should be done in a collaborative way. And so what we're hoping for is that, because there's also context that we provide, it's not just exercises. We provide information for counselors, like what's the problem here or what are some of the issues here and what might be helpful therapeutically. So, it's really geared more for counselors or mental health professionals to buy. We're not really thinking clients are going to go and buy this because we represent all kinds of issues in the book, too from adverse, crisis events that happen all the way to common mental health issues. And part that really drew me into working on this was the issues around the political divisiveness and the tribalism and the injustices and even social media and the impact of that.
So, we cover a lot of ground in here, but the whole point would be one client would not want to get this book and then go from start to finish because they're not dealing with all of these things. So, it's more it gives the counselor tools to say, "Hey, this one client is dealing with grief. There's a chapter on grief. Let's see if there's anything in there for that." Another client maybe just was dealing with a chronic illness. We have a chapter for that.
And I know it sounds like we're all over the place, but honestly, and this is something we had to really think about as we were working on the book, the focus really is on these out of session activities, and that's what really ties the book.
And again, like you said, how you can adapt it. So, no matter where they are or what chapter, it may come from, somebody who's really paying attention to what's happening with their client can see how the benefits could really work in the client's favor if they tweak it just a little bit.
And good things along the other lines. Can you talk a little bit about-
I said we would hope that they would do that.
Yeah, yeah. So, how does a counselor who's doing telehealth therapy might look at this? How can they actually incorporate that into the activities that they're doing outside of session? Is it the same?
Yeah. That's good. Now, I don't practice telehealth, but our thought behind that is that I think counselors are under a lot of pressure. The demands are greater than ever, I would think. And for those who are practicing telehealth, it might be a really good aid to therapy because I think it kind of bridges what goes on from set to session. If the client can be working on processing some of the issues and reflecting on some of these issues in between, I think it's going to make the sessions maybe more productive, if that.
So, one of the things that you talked about in the book is how someone can address stress of living in polarizing times. And we all know what that is. You kind of alluded to some of those earlier. And so, you're dealing with these times and you're coping, especially with political difference and values conflicts. So, what might be some ways that you would kind of address these with your clients?
Yeah. And I should say personally, I'm not working with clients in a mental health context. However, I think I can speak to that. Well, okay. There are a couple of scenarios that I'm sort of thinking of. One is where clients might come in and talk to a counselor about how all of these political differences and on the divisiveness is impacting them and impacting maybe their relationships with other people. So, that might be something.
The other scenario I'm thinking about is where there are these sharp, maybe political differences between counselor and client. And so, for one thing, I would say, it's really important for counselors to pay attention to their countertransference triggers. And be really deeply aware of their own biases and values and political leanings and everything because it has, as you well know, just really polarized.
Right. And so I can imagine that you think about it in terms of what you do on an everyday basis. You had talked a little bit earlier about cutting off social media, but also there's a possibility of cutting off, just all aspects of anything coming in, filtering that so that it doesn't necessarily affect you. So, a lot of times there are people who are news junkies, so they got the television on 24/7 and so they're just seeing all this stuff that are inundated with all these things that just keep on adding more and more stress to their lives.
So, it's probably an ability to walk away from those types of things as opposed, and recognizing how that helps to relieve your stress a little bit and hopefully helping people kind of identify. What was different when you didn't watch TV for a month? What was different when you didn't do social media for a month? What were you doing to kind of either fill in that time or what were you doing that maybe helped you see yourself calmer or in a different space? Is that kind of how you see it?
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I think that the key here is to help clients be reflective about and to kind of process the impact of this on themselves, on their health, on their wellbeing, on their relationships and everything else, so you're right. And that idea of curbing your watching the news. Because now, we see in real-time as things are happening and with 24/7 news coverage and social media, there's no escape unless you draw those boundaries.
Last night, I was watching a basketball game. It's finals. We're right now in the March madness piece. And I could see myself getting stressed out at the end of a game because it was just too close for comfort. Let's just talk about stuff, in general. If you were working with me and I was telling you how I was impacted by a basketball game, what would you do? What would you say to me? How would you work with me?
What would I say to you? I mean, I'd want to understand maybe underneath what's getting tapped into. I'd want to understand that more and maybe how it also connects with other things that are going on for you. And that's a great example of the basketball game, because it certainly seems like this. That same feeling I often have as I'm watching.
Something absolutely I'm thinking of time, I'm linking it to my alma mater. I'm linking it to the fact that I want them to win. All these different things. And then, when you start seeing things happening, whether it's a coach with a bad call in terms of what they're telling the team to do, in terms of how to handle this pressure or that pressure, or you see the referees coming in and doing something where they're impacting the game by the calls they're making. And so, you're just getting more and more riled up because you, in the end, want your team to win, right?
Yeah. Well, to some extent, it has to do with what is within our control and then what is not within our control. And I think helping people to identify that and what can they do with that.
Is it baby steps then? Because you said imagining what's in your control and what's not in your control.
So, if you see somebody coming in and they're really impacted by something that's happening in their life, something that's very, very stressful for them and they can't see it. No matter what you do, even the activity that you're doing, they're not able to kind of conceptualize what it is that's happening to them. Is it best to then maybe backtrack and just do some things from a baby steps type of a situation, so that they can start to see different things and make sense of different things that maybe are not connected so to speak, but it will get them to be connected to the bigger issue?
Yes. Well, I think that makes a lot of sense to me. Yes.
Yeah. And I would think that, I'm looking about how do you help a client really get out of their own way, so to speak? And maybe even counselors get out of their own way, right?
Right. Dr. Butler, I think sometimes we all have to get out of our own way. I certainly have to, at times. But I guess what I'm thinking is sometimes if you're too confrontational, you run the risk of people will never want to come back. And so, it's like I think you need to be attuned to your client and how much can they handle, how much are they going to be receptive to. And understand the client within the context of their life and their background, even their own identity. I think identity is really important. Where are they at in terms of their own identity development. And how much can they handle? What is going to help them to move forward? And so, I think that's kind of really what you'd want to gauge.
And so, talk a little bit about your writing style. We're getting ready to come into a break now. So, how did you get into the mindset of writing this book and also the book that you were editing with Coreys and the Austins?
Yeah. Well, I've always loved to write. It's always been something that I'd love to do and for some reason in a way it's easier to write than to talk, so I had to challenge that fear for a long time. But I think there's something about putting your thoughts down on paper and it kind of helped me to process what was going on. So, with this coping skills book, I think what it was for me was also empowering to pull together the research.
So, it wasn't just a matter of like, "Oh, I'm going to come up with exercises." But it was a matter of like, "Let me look at the literature." So, that's part of it, too. It's like, "What's going on here?" It's a curiosity about what do we know about what will be helpful and what's not helpful.
Nice, nice, nice. And so, what's it like collaborating with others? What's your process when you start to see these works come into fruition, especially on paper? How does it now get translated? How do you and then Dr. Haynes' work, how do you and the Coreys and the Austins work to make sure that this is a solid piece of work?
Right. Well, I think there's a lot of back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, and a lot of conversation. And I have to say, that's the best part of it. Honestly, I feel like it's the friendships that have developed through all of this.
And so, it's not just the writing, but it's the thinking through and the conversations that happen.
Excellent, excellent. So, when you think about your writing style, do you typically write in the morning? Do you write in the evenings?
Do you write when the spirit strikes? What's your mode of operandi that?
Okay. Well, I had an immediate reaction when you asked that question. I know when I don't write and that's in the morning. I am not a morning person. Hence, my Diet Coke, that's when it happens.
That's your Diet Coke. Excellent. Well, listen, we are coming up on a break time. And so, we're going to take a moment to listen to our sponsors for a little bit. And then we'll come back and jump right back into talking about the book. How's that?
Sure. Sounds great. Thanks.
Excellent. This is the Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. We'll be back with you in a moment.
Counselors help positively impact lives by providing support, wellness, treatment. We're working to change lives. We are creating a world where every person has access to the quality professional counseling and mental health services needed to thrive.
Welcome back to the Voice of Counseling from The American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and joining me today is Dr. Michelle Muratori. And we are talking about her new book. It came out in 2020. She wrote it just prior to the pandemic. And so, I just want to talk about that. You wrote it prior to the pandemic. However, it addresses many of the issues that are being exacerbated right now. Social justice, disparities, systemic barriers to assessing quality healthcare and marginalized communities, all those types of things. Climate change, tribalism, just to name a few.
What are some of the things that you see and what does it all mean for the profession? And how can we, as counselors, best serve our clients?
Wow. Yeah. That's a good topic. Actually, a very good topic to speak to that, as you can imagine, the book came out and what was right around the corner was this. Honestly, it's like a shared communal trauma. And I think what stands out about that is that both clients and counselors are impacted by the same trauma on a personal level, as well as on so many levels. And so, it's ironic Bob and I would have discussions like, "Well, gosh, if things change." Because we were thinking more of the political situation and "What if things change and how will that, will there be a need for this?" Like, "Well, yes. Yes, there is."
Well, there's always going to be a need because there's always going to be something that is impacting someone some way, some shape, some form. And I think we also have to look at it from now, we know what it's on a larger scale. But we also have to make space for the things that are just where somebody might say, "Well, that's not impactful. That's not something that you should be concerned about."
You talked about grief and loss earlier, loss and grief, actually. And so you talk about that, all those things, whether it's on a wide scale pandemic size or the political system with what's happened over those four years when we had a certain president over another president. And just as simple as something happening in your neighborhood where perhaps you got into a car accident or something. Those things are all adding stress to a person's life.
Right. And I think there's this cumulative stress that's going on. I think that Counseling Today magazine does a great job of covering these topics. But there was that article about like is it burnout versus pandemic fatigue. And I think, honestly, everybody's fatigued. This has been going on for so long and I think, again, part of what strikes me about it is that it's almost like a tsunami of stressors that can happen. And so yes, they're happening maybe on all different levels, but you're right on that micro level, we're having to deal with all kinds of stressors.
And in a sense, that's okay. It's okay for you because I think when times are rough like this people are like, "Well, mine is so minor. I shouldn't be worried." But that adds stress. So, when you don't deal with the things that are stressing you out, you say, "Well, there are other things that are happening in the world that are much more impactful." Like the things that are happening in the Ukraine and things along those lines.
And so you just say, "How can I be upset or be stressed out when all this is happening here and there and all these other things." And so, sometimes people put it off and say, "I'm not going to take care of myself because there's others who are hurting in the world. And I shouldn't be so selfish, so to speak, to do that." So, what's your thoughts around that?
Yeah. I think, when we do that we sort of, in a way, we don't want to alienate ourselves, right?
Like moving away from taking care of ourselves and recognizing when we're in pain. And I think it can sneak up on people when we're not taking care of ourselves. And all of a sudden, we realize, "Oh, my gosh. I've kind of neglected myself." And so, I think-
The danger of neglecting yourself to the point where it goes too far. And then now, you have to find really strong ways to pull it back and get back to self?
Absolutely, absolutely. And I can even share my own life. There was one point where I was letting it go on a little too long. I was just dealing with a lot and I think I had just come back from a visit with my family. And I noticed like, "I'm having a hard time breathing." And what it was, was the stress. And I realized, "I need to kind of take a step back and look at things a little bit different." And so, I think, yeah, I think we really need to take care of ourselves and be reflective about it, so that we show ourselves. We talk about self-compassion. Sometimes we're not very compassionate towards ourselves.
So, I'm wondering what that looks like when we take a look back and be reflective. How does one actually take that? And is that a learned behavior you think or is that? Like if I had a client that wasn't necessarily able to kind of be reflective, what would be some activities that I might be able to do to kind of support that? Or are there things in the book that kind of talk about that?
Yes, actually there are. There are quite questions that tend to be really reflective in all of the chapters. And I think in a way, that's really one of the key points there is to help people process or reflect on their experiences. And then how they're feeling about it, how it's impacting them. And then, the important thing would be to process it then with their counselor. Yeah, definitely, that's really-
So, if I came to you and I was having an issue, can we model it a little bit? Would you be willing to model it a little bit with me right now?
Okay. Okay, so and now, I'm trying to think of something that I can quickly make up later in my mind. All right. So I'm dealing with perhaps some, some loneliness with regards to being away from family. I've been traveling a whole heck of a lot and it's hard to connect with people because I'm not there physically all the time. What might be some ways that I can kind of support getting back to being more reflective of that and recognizing that's the challenges that I'm dealing with right now and maybe come up with other things that I can do to foster those connections. Is there anything that you can think of that I can do?
Well, I mean, again, I think it starts with that reflection about, what are you feeling like you're missing? And what are some things that you can do? What are some tangible is that maybe you'd be willing to do? And maybe even again, baby steps, like you were saying before, I think. What is one thing that you're willing to do and to commit to move in the direction of maybe reconnecting? I don't know. There are a lot of other things.
Well, I feel like I'm missing out, so there are things that are happening and my children are growing up and I'm missing some of the key moments, like the dance studios and when you talk about people being soccer people, the soccer moms, the soccer dads. Taking their kids here and there. And the recitals and all those other things. How do I kind of manage the fact that I'm missing those things because I'm traveling so much?
Right. Well, of course, wanting to understand what that's like for you. But then I wonder, are there other ways that you can connect? And together in a collaborative way, try to come up with ways for you to connect. Let's say it's impossible for you because of your travel schedule to do that. Well, what are some other alternatives? Maybe more of video chats or more, I don't know. And-
So, maybe even making the best of the time when I am there, right?
I'm not necessarily able to go to your recitals per se. But being more mindful that, "Okay, then let's do this activity together. Let's do this other activity together," to kind of work with.
Or maybe I was just thinking. It just thought on me, maybe they could videotape the recital and that at another time, you could watch it together.
Or something like that. But I think-
That's a very interesting point.
Yeah. I mean, I think that you'd want to collaborate with your client to think about what would work for them?
Okay. Good. Yeah. So, that's a really good brainstorming type of a situation to be able to kind of come in and really just navigate those waters that way. And so, what are some other, because a lot of times I think people get caught up in, "Because I missed it, I'm a bad person," or "Because I missed it. Now, I've lost out on this and this."
And so, I'm making more of it than I maybe possibly should. If I'm looking at it as a loss of connection then that might not be the way that my family is looking at it. They may see it as, "Okay, you're doing something that's supporting us." But I can't wrap my head around that because I'm thinking of it as, "I missed the recital."
And I think there's a lot of sometimes people feel a lot of guilt and shame about things. And those really heavy, heavy emotions. When in fact, sometimes there are things that they have control over and something, parts that maybe they don't have as much control over. And so, I think it's a matter of being able to recognize that.
And say, "Okay, instead of getting stuck in it," and I think that's the key. It's like helping a person not to get stuck in it, and beat themselves up too much for it. "All right. Let's move on. So, what can you do?" And help them to reflect on, "What is that like? Try that out." And so, for example, which is also important, let's say that would be like an out of session activity. During the week, maybe you'd agree on something. You definitely would want to follow up the next week, so that otherwise, finding [crosstalk 00:43:35] follow-through with it.
Yeah, you follow it up [crosstalk 00:43:36]. The connections there in therapy is that you care and that you remember them going through this and so, you want to help them. And also, I think some accountability, too, right?
Because you tell somebody to do something and then they don't necessarily do it over the course of the session week. Then, you talk about that, right?
And then help them see that they may be kind of blocking their own progress because they're not following through, on some of the things that they say that they want to work on in therapy.
Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think, it's material to be processed, right?
It's all material to be processed, even when maybe there's some reluctance to do something. Sometimes that leads to really rich material. And it might help people to see how they might get in their own way.
So, one of the things that you have talked about in saying goodbye and ending the therapeutic journey, what are some things that you suggest that clinicians can kind of keep in mind when approaching termination?
Yeah. Well, I think that's interesting because sometimes, there's so much focus on the other stages of counseling. But I think we have to place as much importance on that end stage as the other stages because, and a lot of people have a time with endings. Maybe because of their own losses and grief and so forth, so it's sometimes, the ending doesn't get the attention it deserves, right?
So, it's an opportunity, I think, to consolidate what people have done during their work together to kind of, "Let's look together what this meant? What did this experience mean? How did you grow? How did you do that? How can you take this and move forward?" And but also to really connect with a client. And don't leave yourself out of the equation there because it was a relationship.
And I do think that what counselors bring to it is their empathy, their deep well of empathy and humanity. And so, I think not walling that off at the very end is important. So, I think for counselors, also, making sure they do their own work around losses and endings. And especially if you've had long-term work with somebody or maybe really helping somebody through trauma, really acknowledging what that meant. And helping the client also, to kind of leave feeling really empowered.
Empowered. And seeing their own resilience, I guess, and recognizing that they were able to come through certain things. I often wonder, sometimes clients come specifically for a certain thing in counseling. How do you work with clients to help them see it across a litany of things? And so, you came and you kind of learned how to kind of work through this particular issue, but now see how this lends towards this particular issue after this comes up.
You talk about ending. And the therapeutic journeys ending, helping them recognize that you've been able to do this with this particular issue. Now, think about that over other things that may come up for you in your life as you are going through it, that you can use some of these techniques. How do you kind of help clients see that?
Right. Well, again, I'm not practicing like in a mental health capacity. But still, I mean, earlier in my career, I did community mental health and in-home family counseling. So, I've been in that position. But I think that it is important to see how those strengths. I think maybe that's what it is.
It's really mirroring back the strengths that clients have and showing. "You did this. You were able to do this. And it's really incredibly." And the challenges will be different. You can't always know what's coming around the corner, but, empowering them to know that they know-
Yeah. They were able to do it. In one sense, they should be able to find the strength and the resiliency to get through it. So, build on those particular things that have been happening in your life. Don't get caught up in "I can't, I can't, I can't." Think about the things that you did do and that you were able to accomplish and recognize that if you put your mind to it, then something else that comes up is something that you can kind of handle as well.
Right. Absolutely. A lot of people will say, "Oh, I can't stand this. I can't stand this." But it's like, "But you are. You are standing it." And so, helping people to realize that maybe they're more resilient than they think they are. And that first of, resilient skills can be taught. It's not just that, "Oh, I'm not resilient, so I might as well forget it." It's like actually these skills can be strengthened.
Right. And it also, like when you just said that, this now it made me think that people are resilient without even recognizing that they're resilient. So, as a counselor, you can find ways to let them know, "Hey, you did this and you did this. This is what resilience looks like. You were able to get here today to come to this counseling session. This is what resilience looks like."
And so, helping them kind of reimagine so to speak what it is that they have been doing already in their life, that perhaps kind of cleans it up a little bit for them. And they say, "Oh, okay. I am able to do this. I am willing to do this." So, I want to ask if there are any final words? We're coming up on the end of our time together. Are there anything that you would to talk about with regards to self-care and resiliency and how we can continue to foster that in our clients?
Well, my gosh. We've talked about a lot of things here today. I think that it has to start with us. And I think we can be models in that sense and we're not perfect models. And that it's important to recognize that we don't have to do it perfectly. That we need to kind of give ourselves some grace. We've all been through a really hard time and there are a lot of challenges. And so, we need to be kind to ourselves and not lose touch with our humanity. That's the best thing that we have to offer.
Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. Well, Dr. Michelle Muratori, thank you so much for coming in and talking about the book. And the book is Coping Skills For A Stressful World: A Workbook for Counselors and Clients. Thank you for putting it out there to the individuals in the world to be able to grasp and to find themselves within and help themselves through that. So, you and Dr. Haynes did some great work there, so it's really appreciative. Thank you for everything that you're doing. And I appreciate you being a guest today.
Well, thank you. This was such a pleasure. And I know I'm speaking for Bob and myself, we really appreciated this space today to just talk about it. And it was delightful talking with you.
Well, great, great, great. It's fun talking with you as well. And this has been the Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. We're coming to you from the American Counseling Association. And we'll see you next time.