by
Joseph Peters
| Mar 10, 2022
Announcer:
Welcome to the Voice of Counseling presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is Counseling Leadership and Advocacy, Strengthening the Future of the Profession, part one and features Dr. Cassie Storlie.
Welcome to the Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. I am Dr. S. Kent Butler. Joining us today is Dr. Cassie A. Storlie. Dr. Storlie is an associate professor and doctoral program coordinator in counselor education and supervision at Kent State University. As a Latina, her research is focused on leadership and advocacy and career development of Latinx, Latinos, Latinas, and BIPOC communities. She has authored and co-authored approximately 45 journal articles and book chapters. Dr. Storlie is here today for part one about her book, Counseling Leaders and Advocates, Strengthening the Future of the Profession, which she co-authored with Dr. Barbara Herlihy. Welcome. Cassie, Dr. Storlie, how are you doing?
I'm doing great. It's cold here in Ohio, but I'm doing good.
Well, you all keep that cold right up there. Actually, I did a bike ride this morning and it was pretty cool out here for the weather conditions that we typically have here in Florida, but we made it through. We made it through. So, it's really exciting to talk with you, especially with this book that came out. I had an opportunity to read through the book and give you all some comments in terms of some feedback. And I forgot how it was, but I think I'm on the back cover of some sort.
Giving you guys kudos for the great work that you've done. Can you tell me about how this whole thing came about and what it was like working with Barbara and all the good things that are coming out of this book already?
Absolutely. I think probably to sum it up that this book is really about the stories and as counselors, like you know, we are curious about our clients and their stories. We're very curious about the leaders in our field, and we wanted to explore more about their stories and these are the movers and the shakers of our profession. And I think we really wanted to get into what was their inspiration. How do we continue to move forward as this village of counselors and counselor educators?
So as we developed the book, the inspiration happened, I would say, yeah, I had to go back and look, I think it happened in the summer of 2016 or 2017.
And Barbara and I were both in leadership and service roles together within the same counseling organization and in one of the days-long board meetings that we were in we had a discussion with another leader in the field about capturing those stories. And we talked about the Leaders and Legacies book that was written by John West and Don Bubenzer and Cynthia Osborne. And all of those are Kent State people. And we had talked about those stories and about how many people had passed away and how many stories hadn't been passed on.
And so as we talked more about that, we talked about how can we make sure that we're honoring the stories and the vision and the inspiration of those individuals. And so really it was kind of a move forward when we thought about how do we continue to share those stories with our future counselors, with our future leaders so that they too can get inspiration?
Okay. All right. That's great. How you edited the book. Myself, I went through the whole process of who do you choose, who do you reach out to, who will respond? And what was that like for you all? And how did you come up with the collection of individuals that you did finally end up with?
Sure. So we took after the model of Don West and Cynthia and Don as far as finding an academy of advisors and so we had some criteria. We had five advisors that had served in the counseling profession in multiple roles as leaders themselves, and we asked them to generate lists. Lists of people that they felt that would be important to profile, that we want to make sure that we asked them as leaders in the profession, who do we want to showcase? Who do we want to make sure that people hear their story?
And from there, we did somewhat of a modified Delphi with that. We kind of took that, and everybody that was listed two or more times, we threw that list back to those academy of advisors. And then we asked them to ensure that we had a good level of diversity among the group. And so we did that, I think, three times until we ended up with our final list of the 13 that are profiled. And so Barbara and I were at a great place to start and we went full force on those 13 that we were able to showcase.
That's amazing. And I'm glad you shared that process because I think it's important for people to understand what goes into making sure that you bring forth the product that you do. And the book is exciting. The book has done wonders already for the counseling profession. And it's really reassuring to know that it wasn't like, oh, I just called four of my friends and said, "Hey, come do this." That process says a lot about the integrity of what you wanted to have come across with this book.
Yeah. We really wanted to be systematic with it. We wanted to use some methodology and be strategic in how we did it. And we really did listen to what the experts in the fields were saying. Not just their opinions, but based on their decades-long experiences of leadership within multiple counseling organizations would say, these are the people we need to showcase.
That is really neat. That's really, really neat. Thanks for sharing that.
So what are some of the culturally responsive counseling, leadership and advocacy things that you have put into this, and what does it look like, and why is that important for this book?
This was my absolute most favorite chapter in the book to write. And myself and Dr. Christian Chan and Dr. Mike Hannon, who are been colleagues of mine for a really long time, good friends of mine for a really long time and co-authors, it was such an important chapter, an important chapter to lead the book with. And yet it's so complex when we talk about culturally responsive leadership and what does that mean for advocacy? So this will be a bit of a long-winded answer, I think, but-
There's a lot of historical context that comes into this.
When I think cultural responsiveness, I think it's born out of cultural sensitivity. And for a super long time, counselors, and I know that we don't want to admit this, we have just been not on board with being sensitive to racial and cultural and ethnic issues in comparison to what that means to the dominant culture. And so this historical context particularly is what we put in the book, it talks about the otherness. It talks about the history of our profession where we had two times, twice, that we had BIPOC communities in the '50s. I think it was right around 1957 that BIPOC communities were blocked from seeking leadership positions within American Personnel and Guidance Association, which is now ACA. And we have to talk about that history because I'm a firm believer of you don't know where you're going unless you know where you've been.
I'm a product of that history. Yes, I understand.
But I don't think that's something that's talked about and I don't think it's something that's really, really recognized, and as difficult as it might be to digest that, as counselors we have to know that we were a part of that and that we can come away from that. We can come forward with that, but we have to acknowledge and honor those individuals that had experienced that, and we need to recognize that there are still actions, that we have to identify with those actions that are still in strong proximity to white supremacy. And we have to think about those things in very matter of fact ways and put that out there for students to learn about, for counselors to learn about and for counselor educators that didn't know, to learn about. And so it becomes important because it's beyond sensitivity, it's responsive.
It's the action piece. The action piece is what leadership is. The action piece is what advocacy is. And it's fantastic that we have come from the roots of Frank Parsons with immigrant populations and so on and so forth. But that turbulent time was something that our profession experienced as society went through the continuous social and systemic injustices and that continue to go through. I think there was a minute where it just kind of went quiet or dormant, but it never went away. And so when I think about culturally responsive leadership and I think about advocacy, it's awareness but not just that. So who am I as a cultural human being? Who am I as a person? How am I aware of that?
It goes beyond sensitivity, not just about honoring people. And it also goes beyond competence. Do I understand that intersectional nature of myself, of my clients, of my peers, of society? But it has to do with the action. And so when I think about that second chapter, it's so important because it has to color the way in which we think and the way in which we move forward.
Yeah. You know, I often engage in conversations and I'm really a big proponent on having these difficult dialogues around race and culture and all these things that you're bringing up. And so many times you get pushback from individuals, especially from the dominant culture because it's like, well, why do we keep bringing this up? Why do we keep talking about this?
Can you talk a little bit about why it's important to talk about this, even though it may have happened in the past, but how it has really influenced and impacted those of us who are here living in the present?
I think history can repeat itself if we're not careful. And I think that it's important because we don't want that to repeat itself. It's important because people need to be educated in ways that they hadn't heard about before or weren't for whatever systemic reason that might have been, to be a leader or to be an advocate and to understand that historical context also can help us think about different ways that we can take action I think from micro levels to macro levels. And all of those things being really, really important if we're going to move our entire profession forward. We need the small, we need the individual, we need the client, we need the student and then we need the policy. We need all of those things to move forward, but we don't know how to do that if we don't really honor and recognize what has happened before.
So what would you say to the person who comes to you and says something like, "Get over it, move on. It happened already, get on with your life." What would your immediate response be to someone who says something like that?
I'm curious on how you came to think that, because we all have stories. There is a reason why some people who have that kind of opinion, there's something beneath that. It's not just on the surface. I do believe that people's worldview are so much cultivated and brought up with how they were brought up. So what is their story? How did they come to believe that? And having extended family members by marriage say some of those things to me, I have said that. And again, it's about how can I be the bigger person here? How can I ask, "How did you come to believe that? What is that story for you?" It's not an easy thing. I can't say that I've always been the most pleasant person [crosstalk 00:12:54], but I feel like I've learned to also honor and acknowledge everybody can be a cultural being. And just because I don't agree with or respect or understand what that might be like, it doesn't mean that I can't be open to hearing it.
Right. Right. And thank you for that, because I think when I think about it, the conversations that we don't have is how we're impacted by each other's stories, narratives, things that have happened in each other's past that led us to the moment that we got to, when that kind of thing came up in the first place. And a lot of times I think individuals, they don't want to believe it. They don't want to see that maybe life could have been that difficult or hard for someone, and they want to cherish the moments that they're in right now. So look how great you're doing now. And so don't worry about that stuff. And again, I guess that goes with the fragility of it all and other things that happen when people don't want to talk about those things. But talking about those things, when you talk about mental wellness and health, it actually helps with the healing in some regards, right?
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that it's recognition of where you come from. Who are you as a cultural being? And recognizing those things are really important, not just from a societal place but everybody's own personal story. My grandfather came to the United States as an undocumented Mexican trying to make a better life for his family, his 13 brothers and sisters in Mexico, had six kids, worked three jobs in complete poverty and-
And it mattered, and it matters now. It matters to me and what I can do in the classroom and what I can do in writing and the message that we can send forward to others that there's a story that matters, and how we are already natural helpers I think as counselors, well, how does that change so that we can be leaders and advocates? And advocating is for those that have always been marginalized historically over time.
Yeah. And maybe take it a step further. You've said that people who have gone through this can then take it to the next level and help society to grow from those experiences. What is that advocacy like? How do we encourage people to take it to that next level and to continue on with that so that the next generations and the next generations maybe have it a little bit easier than they may have had it.
Yeah. I wish there was an easy answer for that question, but I do think it has to do with action. I think as counselors we do a great job talking. That's what we do. But it has to do with action. And I think little actions are just as important and salient as larger policy, systemic actions, because that's how movement happens.
So I think it's not being afraid to do something and to speak up. And I think also that includes that professional advocacy piece on speaking up on behalf of our profession.
Right. Yeah, because there are people who would say to you that it's not our job to change society. We are supposed to just help the person who's sitting across from us or the number of individuals in a family or a group situation that are sitting across from us. But I'm always of the mindset that we shouldn't heal someone to send them back into a broken system.
And that's kind of what I come to when I'm communicating with folks. It's like, how do you want to heal someone and have that heart to want to support someone through whatever it is that they're going through, knowing that you're sending them back into the same situation where they were hurt in the first place?
Right. Yeah. And we have a lot of systems that need some repairing, sure.
Yeah, yeah. So you're a strong advocate of mentorship. How do you see counselors supporting themselves and through the art of mentorship?
I will have to say that I drank the Koolaid of Kerry Ann Rockquemore. If you are familiar with Kerry Ann Rockquemore's work, she talks about the mentoring map, and she talks about how mentors should be of various levels. We shouldn't throw all our eggs in one basket, that we need mentors that will give us substantive feedback, that will help us with professional development, that will help us with emotional support if we need it, and always help us be accountable for things that really matter. And so when I think about mentorship, I encourage my students and my mentees, don't always just go after one person. Make sure you have multiple mentors in many fields because you are your own individual and you can take a piece of advice from everybody, but you don't always want to solely go to one person, especially if that's not their area.
So for example, I'm not going to go to somebody that I really, really admire for their editorial work for necessarily my emotional support. I'm going to go to some other mentors that I know that can really help me with that piece. And so finding the right person for the right reason, I think, with mentorship is always, always important.
And it makes mentorship that much more easier. And it also helps to create and establish relationships that become more authentic when you go to the individuals who give you and feed you the way that you need to be fed from them. It's not a burden on them any longer because that's who they are.
And the way they know how to feed. The way they know how to feed or the way that they can excel in feeding, absolutely.
I like that. I like that. So can you share about your experience being mentored and what it was like working with Dr. Herlihy?
Absolutely. In the profiles, Anita Pool talks about an experience where somebody told her if Dr. Herlihy offers to take you under her wing, you just don't say no. And I am really very grateful I did not say no. And if anything, I might have been pestering her like, "Come on, come on." But she has this presence about her and really this historical knowledge, this multi-generational ability of mentorship that she has done, that really allowed me, I felt like in this experience, to develop into the fullest potential I could have. And I know that many times in this experience of writing the book, I had mentioned to her that this is my first rodeo so I'm going to ask lots of questions and I'm going to be asking many, many questions. And many of these questions might be stupid and never once did I feel that way.
Never once did I have to question her ongoing support. And if anything, I felt like some of the best piece of mentorship she provided to me was to slow down and to let's think about that. And as somebody that is admittedly a pretty goal oriented, I like to schedule things, I'm good at being organized, we complimented each other very well because I needed her to tell me to "Just slow down. It's okay if we don't make this deadline," I could do that. And I feel the same with her. She would say, "Oh, I'm so glad you're so organized because we'd never keep moving forward."
Yeah. Yeah. There's a trust factor there that you both were able to see each other's strengths.
Yeah. That's pretty neat. So she has an inspiring journey. Are there things that you know about her journey that have impacted you and who you have become as a leader, author, advocate?
Absolutely. As I mentioned before, I think definitely as that multi-generational leader and that she has been a mentor to so many. And in the book she shares some personal things that she had to be resilient to you. She talked about having to hide her pregnancy behind a file cabinet or something like when she was a school counselor so the superintendent wouldn't see. Where she was almost looked over as somebody that could teach an undergraduate course because even though she had a master's degree, she was serving as a teaching assistant.
I think that those real stories, those real experiences about not being seen or about having to hide, I think, were something that certainly resonated me as a person, let alone a leader, author, advocate. I think the moments that she speaks about in the book that had changed her life with hurricane Katrina. Overall, I feel that my experience with her in this book and what you can read in the profile is that ability to be true to who you are. And that not only was, to me she was a role model, but she showed me how I, too, could be a role model too. So again, that slowing down and breathing, sleep on it, making the right decisions. And I'm talking about the writing process but so much of those lessons can go over in real life too.
Yeah. So as a person who identifies as Latinx, Latina, what do you see your role as a mentor in the lives of not only your students but maybe family members and friends and others that you have encountered over your pathway?
I think it's the illumination of the voices that haven't been heard, and it's the intersectional piece of that. So not just as a Mexican American female, but one that grew up in poverty and one that grew up with her grandparents as parents or in those early formative years. What are the things that I can do to help students honor their own experience and their own story? And that all of us, as counseling is so inclusive, we all have something to offer. We all have something to give and it doesn't have to be shiny and bright. It can truly be very small and be so, so valuable.
So this is a strange question, but is there ever been a time when you were in a mentorship relationship where you feel like you might have been failing and then it just blossomed into this great thing that you and this person were able to kind of surpass whatever it was that maybe... Because I don't think that mentorship is easy all the time. I think there are times when there's struggles. So I think there's a tough love period of mentorship sometimes when you have to get in someone's face and they may not like you, and then we as counselors like to be liked.
And so all those things that go on where you may not have had the time because you had something else going on and this person wanted to bite onto your time or there's some things that you felt that you were struggling in mentorship and then you saw it blossom into something greater.
I think definitely with the time. We are busy people as counselors and counselor educators. And when we are present with somebody, we want to give 150%, and there are times where things are pulling at us in every which direction. And I think that what I've tried to do in recognizing those own failures of when I haven't been able to be present, is be very honest and open about what else I can take on and what I can't. And if I can't be 110% to somebody, then I can't take on that mentoring relationship. So even with my own students now, when they ask am I going to co-chair dissertation? I sit with them, I talk to them, I talk to them about my availability. "Am I going to be what it is that you need as a person? Know yourself and know what you need, can I be that for you? I don't know. Let's talk about that." But definitely it has happened with time and me not feeling that I can give as much as maybe somebody really needs.
Yeah. Yeah. So do you have a moment where someone's come back to you and maybe... Because when I think about mentorship and a lot of times it's sewing seeds, right?
It's putting stuff in that you don't necessarily see the impact of it immediately. I had a situation where I was sewing into some younger people when I was an undergrad actually, and saying things to them and trying to help them out. And I don't know where it was coming from at that time, but I really saw a promise in them. And I really wanted to stop them from doing some of the bad behaviors that they were doing. It wasn't until years later I was working at the same university and this kid comes in and says, "Hey, I want to thank you, because of you I'm this major." And I'm like, "Whoa," because it wasn't in my thought. I thought I was losing. I really thought that I had no impact at all on these kids, and then to have this person come back years later. And I think as counselors, we don't get that often, because when we send our clients away we only can hope that sometimes that they find their destiny or their promise, right?
Yeah. I think the ones that come most recently to mind for me are with students. An undergraduate student a few years ago that I had mentored, she came back to ask me those questions about how do you deal with the politics around here? How do you not get just so angry and upset and tell people off? How do you not do that?
How do you not just tell people, how do you smile and just... I said, "Because you got to learn the game. You know how to play the game. What's your long term goal? How are you going to get to that goal? By yelling at people? I don't think so." And so again, it's that pulling back.
But most recently, I think about a dissertation student that had graduated a few years ago and she was my graduate assistant, I think, in my first couple years here at Kent. And I had a come to Jesus meeting with her because she didn't get her stuff done. And I said, "Listen, I can't have these meetings if you can't help me with these things and this all just works out." And later on she said, "I'm so glad..." She asked me to chair her dissertation. She said, "I need you." And I said, "Why?" Because her topic wasn't anything I studied. And she said, "Because you will keep me honest. You will tell me if I'm off track because you had the come to Jesus meeting with me."
And you know the funny part about what you're saying is it's not easy to say these things to folks.
They think that you're being mean or harsh or whatever have you. You're really looking out for their best interests. So when they had that aha moment that you were really [inaudible 00:28:16] there, that's a great compliment. Congratulations to you to have this person come back and say, "Hey, I want you to be my chair," because that says something about at least what you were able to build in the relationship with this person.
Yeah. And that level of respect for sure. Yeah.
Well, we're coming up on time to take a quick break.
And what we'll do is we'll come back after the hour and talk a little bit more about Counseling Leaders and Advocates, Strengthening the Future of the Profession with you, Dr. Cassie Storlie. Am I right? So this has been the Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and we'll be back in a moment.
Counselors help positively impact lives by providing support, wellness, treatment. We're working to change lives. We are creating a world where every person has access to the quality professional counseling and mental health services needed to thrive.
So welcome back to the voice of counseling from the American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and we're here today with Dr. Cassie Storlie. And before the break, we were just talking about some of the things that mentors do. And I was just thinking back to the vulnerability that comes with mentoring. And I'm wondering, from your perspective, how has being vulnerable before folks, especially your students and your friends and things about your life experiences, impacted your own personal journey?
I think that transparency is really important and I am probably a person that wears their emotions on their sleeve. I'm not a good poker player. I can't do that very well. But I do know that it probably connects most with my leadership style, which is authentic leadership. And not that there aren't lots of elements of servant leadership under where I function. But I do function from an authentic leadership perspective where being compassionate but being relational and being authentic and having the ability and to be okay with who you are. And I think that's where we want our students to be. That's where we certainly want our students to be when they're working with clients. And I feel that that vulnerability, that ability to be who you are and to be transparent and genuine, it goes a long way.
You can tell if you call somebody up on customer service if they've had a bad day or not. If I'm calling the cable company because my internet keeps going out, that person either is having a great day or a bad day, right?
And that makes a difference in how people's lives are for the rest of that day and the ripple effect that can happen. And so I do feel that that vulnerability makes all the difference in the world in our [crosstalk 00:31:35].
Right. And so if you go into a space angry because of the things that have happened prior to your space, into spaces where people might happy or are having a good life, you're impacting their... there's a ripple effect there that happens with that. And the same thing for those individuals. I can imagine if you've taken your 100th call of the day because there's a problem with the cable, then when you call, you're not going to necessarily be in the best space in terms of that.
But we don't think about that when we are in our interactions because we're like, "Hey, I'm the important person here. And you're doing something that is affecting me because of your behavior or your time," or things along those lines. Do you remember when you allowed yourself to be vulnerable before individuals, when that time was?
I'm guessing it was pretty early, pretty, pretty early. I recall over the holidays my mom sharing that I was a good kid but I could come with some zingers once in a while. That I was a good listener but I'd throw it back if I heard something that I was told as a kid and maybe somebody else wasn't doing that, there was an incongruence there, that I wasn't afraid to say something. And so I think it probably happened early and probably I didn't get penalized for it because I keep being that authentic, genuine person.
Good, good, good, good. Well, that's good. That's a very important piece. Don't ever lose who you are. I mean, don't hurt other people of course, but you should still stay true to who you see yourself to be as a individual.
So let's jump back to the roles of counselors and what they should be doing. So what are the roles that counselors share in advocating for changes that are necessary, especially in support of our clients and the profession?
So I feel like advocacy is an easy piece because as counselors I feel like we are all advocates. We get into it to help. We get into it to support, to help other people be a better version of who they are. And I think that when we are supporting, when we're doing a good job at supporting clients, that has to also transition into being a good job in supporting our profession. And so the roles are multifaceted. There is a variety of them. And I think that there's a place for everybody, because as a counselor, you are a natural leader, and whether people believe that or not, it's the truth.
Absolutely. And I think that there are some important pieces where visible leadership is super important when it comes to service. And I think that maybe more invisible roles also are kind of that machine underneath that keeps things propelled and moving. We have a lot of leaders within ACA and all the divisions of ACA that help move our profession that we don't hear much about. And those are important, important roles. And so we have to support our profession. We have, I think, the responsibility, the license, the certification to speak up. To speak up on behalf of others on behalf of our profession.
And so when I think in that sense of roles moving beyond the client realm, moving beyond the student realm, that professional realm, thinking about the compact, thinking about opportunities for national licensure or thinking about national education standards, those are things that we can be a part of making a great change. And it's a responsibility.
Definitely. And I think there's a great responsibility for leaders who are in places right now to open the door up and bring others to the table. So, from your perspective, how do leaders of today, those who are associated with any entity of ACA per se, how do they make sure or ensure that people who are coming from marginalized or other intersectionalities are at the table and their voices are being heard?
I think for counselors it's getting people involved and engaged. So first and foremost, you can't get other people involved or engaged if you are not. So you have to have that knowledge first, which means you have to be an active participant in your professional life. And I think with that, that's when you get that knowledge of being a sponsor for others. How can we, not just being an advocate but as a sponsor, look out for other people that aren't in the room? I have been blessed to have sponsors in my life that have looked for opportunities for me that I would've never known about had they not been there. How can we be that person for others? And I think that educating and being an active participant in your professional life is what can help you move forward when we think about marginalized populations, getting them a seat.
That's deep. And if you don't enter into spaces and step out of your comfort zone to be in space that you don't normally enter into, you won't be able to understand how you can bring others to the table.
Because you yourself are not willing to go out and kind of... Again, the word vulnerable comes to mind. You have to be vulnerable before people and be able to share who you are and how you feel in certain spaces. Because if you're uncomfortable going into a community of people who are not coming from the same perspective that you're coming from, how can you expect them to come into your space?
Right. Right. I think there's a lot of fear. I think there's a lot of imposter syndrome. And I think it's a real thing. I think I walk into a class and I talk about it and I say, "Yeah, how did I get lucky enough to be here?" And preparation or opportunity, but also that kind of happenstance that, was I in the right place at the right time with the right people that looked out for me?
Yeah, that imposter syndrome is deep. I remember my very first class. I was working at the University of Missouri St. Louis and I was teaching a class, and at the end of the class I actually stopped and I was kind of processing what happened in that class. And I said to myself, "Wow, you really do know this stuff." And it was a revelation because I don't think before that moment I even gave myself credit for getting through my PhD program.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a very real thing. And I share with my students very transparently. I walk into college meetings and I think, "Oh my goodness, there are so many more smart people in this room than me, and I still have something to offer. And I still, I belong here." And I think that's-
Yeah. And I think I look at it a little bit differently, because I've been trying to be really mindful of not putting myself down. And I say, "I have a certain amount of intelligence, but so does this person and so does this person and so does this person, and we bring those things together." Because one of the things my mom always said to me was that you're no different or no better than anyone else, and I believe that. And in believing that, I also believe that when I'm in there, I have to believe that I have the ability or the intelligence to be in that space just as much as I believe that those individuals who are in that space have a right to be there as well.
And so that, I think, is something that I would want to give to the kids that I mentor. Kids, students, folks, anyone that I'm mentoring, that you have just as much right to be there. And it goes back to how you said earlier, sometimes it's playing a game but it's also understanding the game.
Right. Right. If you're going to play well you got to understand it. And similar, in going back to those college meetings, and maybe the piece that I didn't finish was recognition that I belong there too. And am I putting myself in an environment where there is that sense of belonging? Because that's how we retain, that's how we continue, that's how students can feel that they can flourish too, and counselors, when they have a place where they feel that they belong.
Yeah. Yeah. So what suggestions do you have for counseling professionals that kind of relates to them practicing within a multicultural competency, within cultural humility, bringing in cultural sensitivity into their framework?
For me, I try to use the competencies in all that I do. So I really do try to recognize and think about how we can use the multicultural, social justice counseling competencies in teaching. And how do I do it in mentorship and how can counselors do it when they're working with clients? Even if clients are the same, come from the same socioeconomic status, come from the same racial and ethnic background, how do we use that? How do we think about those across context, not just in one specific area?
And I think that's the thing that I love about the multicultural social justice counseling competencies is that. Because I'd say to my students all the time, "You could be counseling..." You're not going to in most cases unless you're doing family counseling or something like that, but "If you were to counsel two individuals from the same parents who lived in the same household, you still could not counsel them the same because they both have their life experiences that will bring or dictate what happens in that room."
And so that's how you have to see it when, not just that family member, but then if you see somebody else come into your office who comes from a different cultural background or a different intersectionality, has a different gender expression, that you still see that person for who they are and you come and you work with that individual, not coming from maybe, "Well, the theory says I should do this."
Right. Right. Absolutely. The best thing I think about the competency is the action piece. And I say that with the advocacy and I say it with the leadership too, the difference becomes the action. And I think an element of that, an extension of that, is how do we reflect and evaluate that it was effective? We have to be constantly reflective in that so that we're evaluating, what did we do? In using it this way with this couple, with this family, with this student, was that effective or not? How do I do it different? We have to make sure that we're spending time on doing those reflective things after the fact, not just the action, but then the reflection after.
And understanding what to do if it wasn't going well.
How to then change that so that you are impacting the person in the manner or way that you hope that your work with them will, I guess, end up kind of evolving too.
Absolutely. And we are in an ever evolving pandemic in twindemics. When we talk about the COVID pandemic, we talk about the social justice pandemic, and if anything, as counselors, we know that the one thing that's constant is change. And so how can we continue to change? And as you mentioned, to continue to understand, continue to understand and evaluate and do better so that others can also do better?
Yeah. So how do we show up and advocate for social injustices from your perspective?
I'm a big fan of ecological systems theory. I'm a big fan on doing it in multiple levels. So you can do it in the individual level. You talk about working with one client, you talk about working with one student, you can break out from those levels. And I think there are multiple ways in which to do that on systems. I think it's being aware of where you have a seat at the table and if you don't, making sure that somebody who does, knows that you need one, and making sure that you use those areas to look at the needs and the actions that pertain to social justice, that pertain to moving our profession forward. Recognizing that there are powerful humans, even when individuals don't feel that they are powerful, that there is voice there, and that we have to make sure that those voices are heard. And that's the essence of servant leadership.
So what are you most proud of with this book?
Ooh, that's a heavy question. I think I'm most proud of giving a perspective of where we can move forward, of how we can think about onward as a launching pad for new generations of counselors and counselor educators and counseling leaders and advocates. That hopefully they can stem some pearls of wisdom to integrate into their lives and their professional careers. And think about what the next generation of counseling is going to look like.
In what ways can people utilize the book? What classes... Let me just not ask anything. I won't put any parameters around it. But in your eyes, how can people get the best usage out of this book? And then what areas would you see them being able to do that in?
I think asking themselves, do they see themselves in any of the leaders? Do they see parts of their story? Do they connect that way? I think having an open mind about what leadership means, not having a prescribed idea of, oh, leadership means I have to be in an office position or I've got to have this elected... That we are leaders as counselors. I think that constant internal dialogue about how I can be a better leader, how can I take this forward? How can I work with colleagues and teach and mentor students or have supervisees that understand culturally responsive leadership? I think it's that internal work, that constant questioning of how do I get more involved? How can I be a better version of my counseling self? Those are the questions, if they can ask themselves through that book, I think they will get the most from it.
Well, I wish you all great success with the roll-out of this. Have you been thinking about where this goes next? Are you all doing the, however you came off with these 13 individuals, are you all back to the drawing board to see what part two might look like?
I think there are some thoughts and ideas about a part two, but I think for now we're just really enjoying being in the moment. And I think that's one thing that I probably can take more advantage of, is just be in the moment, enjoy where we are too.
That's really funny because you said that's what Barbara has said to you, "Slow down and enjoy what's happening right now with what's going on." Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. I don't want to push you farther ahead than you need to be right now. So I'm taking some lessons from Barbara too today. Well, great. Excellent. Any last minute things that you are thinking or that you want to share with our public here?
I really appreciate the opportunity just to talk about it and to give some voice to the workings behind the scenes of how it developed and I hope you all enjoy it.
Well. Great. Great, great. Well, thank you. It's refreshing to have an opportunity to talk with you. And it's refreshing to know that there are people who are doing this work in our community that come from various intersectionalities, who have different life stories, who are willing to put themselves up and be vulnerable before individuals to showcase what this is. And I think the more and more that we do it, maybe we'll be able to change the tide and how people come to this, because there are people who are kicking and screaming against this type of change because they're unaware of what it is or they're afraid of what it might be. And I think you coming forward and sharing your narrative and being proud of who you are as a Latina, has really helped to showcase how we are as counselors and what we can do as counselors, so thank you.
So this has been the Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. We've had a great time today with Dr. Cassie Storlie. And this has been the Voice of counseling, American Counseling Association. We'll see you next time.
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