by
Joseph Peters
| Feb 24, 2022
Announcer:
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling, presented by The American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is Multicultural Competency and Advocacy for Communities of Color, and features, Dr. Carla Adkison-Johnson.
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling from The American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. And joining me today is a very, very good dear friend, Dr. Carla Adkison-Johnson. Dr. Johnson, Dr. Adkison-Johnson is a chair and professor of council education and counseling psychology at Western Michigan University. And she is a licensed professional counselor in the State of Michigan and Ohio. She's an LPCC.
So, she's going to talk a little bit today about her research, her advocacy. And they have been focused on the area of child-rearing practices in African American families.
Dr. Adkison-Johnson often serves as an expert witness in the courtroom and educates family court judges, social workers, and lawyers, to better understand culturally responsive ways of establishing policies and strategies to address the needs of diverse families more adequately.
In 2021, this is a phenomenal piece, right? Dr. Carla Adkison-Johnson authored the book, Child Discipline in African American Families: Culturally Responsive Policies. And it's not listed here, but I will let you know that this phenomenal woman is also the editor in chief of the journal, Multicultural Counseling and Development, out of the AMCD House. And so, joining me today, here she is, Dr. Carla Adkison-Johnson. How are you doing today?
Dr. Carla Adkison-Johnson:
Well, well, Dr. Butler. That is an incredible introduction. I am doing fine. I am doing fine. My brother, it is always good to be in your midst. So, thank you.
Well, it's always phenomenal being in yours. We joke about this, but we've known each other for-
... That's how people do it.
We'll stop there. We'll just stop after that. More than 20.
So, before we even get started, I see a piece of inspiration right behind you, your right shoulder.
Tell me about that picture and what it means to you.
Well, it was The Little Rock Nine, coming outside of the building. And I put that in my office because there's so many first that we are still doing in an educational setting, that every time a person of color or a particular black and brown, African American, Latinx, Asian American, Native American, we enter a space, it's like that. Sometimes it's like that. It's like where you enter, and there are armed guards, meaning that you have a protection sense that you have to have around you when you enter into a space that's still new for us. And so, that picture helps people to remember who enter my office, what that's, and never forget that that's what it is when you're negotiating spaces like this.
I love that perspective because you went someplace that I didn't think of. You said a place of protection. And in a very real sense, those were the words that were used during that time that, "We are here to protect you and to make sure that you're going to be safe."
But I always lean towards why they were there in the first place that made it unsafe.
That's right. That's right.
And you took a very positive spin to it. And I think that's phenomenal in terms of how we continue to uplift and motivate, and change the narrative of what was being stated. Because in a very real sense, we weren't supposed to be there.
No, no. I mean, it's one of those. You're right. We think about all of the atrocities and they were real. And they are real.
But then we were going to be in that space, that was destiny. That was determined. So, because we walk into that spirit that, "No, we're going to be here." But the reality is, but when we enter, this is the reality that you have when you enter. Right.
Nice. Nice. So, you have done a lot in your career. You are seen as one of the stellar leaders of the counselor education field, just for who you are and what you bring to the table, doing your workout at Michigan, but at the same time, spreading it across the whole nation and beyond. You have this new book.
Child Discipline in African American Families: Cultural Responsive Policies.
Let's talk about that. What's this book about? What brought it to the table? And how did you come to write it?
It probably best fits my journey in the American Counseling Association, because the whole reason why I'm here is because I was counselor in Ohio. Before that, and during getting my master's degree, I worked for Child Protective Services. For a minute, thinking it was a part-time job to get the degree. But I end up interacting with families. And then it caused me to pause, when I had to go out to homes, do investigations with African American families. And this thing called whoopings appeared to be a problem for CPS. And as a person who's received a few along the way, growing up, I was asking questions.
I can't even believe that you would ever have gotten-
My mom is in denial. She says, when people interview her, or talk to her, she says, "No, I don't remember." What you mean, you don't remember? But I had a few.
Right. Right. I remember those distinctly. But what bothered me was they were pathologizing this thing. And I said, "Oh, okay." But I understood the situation. And I don't think these parents should go to jail for this.
And so, that stayed with me. Fast forward, I become a counselor. I'm working at an urban community college as a licensed professional counselor. Me and one of my good friends, Venus Williams, who's now Dr. Venus Huing, that's a counselor at another university, we said, we got these notices about this conference called The American Counseling Association Conference. So, we was like, "Girl, look, we're going to go to the conference." Because we had never been to a national conference. Right? So, we're going to go.
So, we got the community college to pay part of our way. We scrap some money together on the other half. And we board a plane from Columbus, Ohio to Baltimore, to the 1990, '91, '92. I can't remember. That time conference. We get there. And one of the sessions we saw in the book was counseling or something, African American families, or doing work with African American families. And the presenters were Dr. Mariana and Dr. Twinet Palmer. And so, we are like, "Oh, okay. Let's go in here because we are dealing with African American folks. They can tell us something, maybe help us out."
So, I go into the room, it's standing room only, in this session. And I'm like, "Well, who are these two women up here?" And they're talking about research. They're speaking truth to power. They're just caring it in a way. And they say they were professors like, "Oh, wow. I don't think I've ever had an African American professor, maybe one."
And so, we, Venus and I go meet with them afterwards, say, "Hey, we like what you did." And so, then it was, I think Mary Arnold just said, "Well, you should think about getting a doctorate." I said, "Oh, no, no. I don't know about that. I'm just barely paying my bills and trying to get what I'm doing here and the job." And then, she was at Kent State. And Dr. Palmer said, "No, no." She was at Ohio State at that time, "You guys can do this." And so, I thought about it when I went home, I said, "I just don't want to continue to be a clinician. I want to contribute something to the research." Because she said, there's another phase to this, besides just doing this work. You can contribute in multiple ways.
So, then that's when I decided to go to Kent and in the counselor education program, got accepted. And she was my chair.
Yes, Dr. Arnold, Dr. Mary Arnold.
Then after that, she went to Governors State. Is that when she went to Governors State?
She went to Governors State after that. And she passed away shortly after that. But in fact, I was myself and Jo-Ann Lipford Sanders, were the only two students that she completed before her death.
Yeah. Oh my God. That's a legacy right there. Yeah. She was really one of the leaders in the field.
Yeah. She was one of the founders of the Counselors for Social Justice, I believe, her and Judy Lewis. Yeah.
She knew what she was doing.
That's for sure. That's for sure. Wonderful. Wonderful. And you talked about Twinet. And I haven't talked to her in a minute, but man, what a phenomenal person she was as well in the counseling field. I got to bring her back. I got to find out where she is and what she's doing.
She's retired at Central Michigan University, that I know. So, it wouldn't be hard to find her. And she'll probably will come on.
Yes. Yes. So, this book inspired you to be written because of your life experiences.
Right. It inspired me. Well, it's interesting. My experiences as a professional CPS worker, things I didn't like that I saw. And then also inspire me as a counselor educator, doing research in the field, where I was experiencing working with other researchers. And they too, weren't knowledgeable about this topic of child discipline in black families. And when it was talked about, it was pathologized such as, "Oh, we got to get them to stop beating their kids and this kind of thing." But none of that was anchored to any real research.
So, with all of that, we're talking years of studying other things, but keeping this at the forefront, interviewing, doing research on several hundred African American parents. And so, at the end of the day, it's a combination of that, plus a current qualitative study that I did the last year or so, that gets into real time types of things with mothers and fathers, which brings it into all of the court work.
Right. Right. So, when you get pushed back from people who say, you shouldn't do that, discipline is corporal punishment, or how would they put that. When people tell you that, how do you respond? What's the two minute elevator talk that you have with folks about why this happens, especially in black and brown communities?
So, I would say in all communities, two minutes, usually when I'm in court, one of the things, that in all communities, the idea that spanking automatically leads to violence and the like, the research is inconclusive. So, we don't have cause and effect research. We may have some relational research. So, just with that alone, for everybody, it doesn't automatically mean that there are other variables and things that come into play. Context is important.
For African American families, we just have not done relevant research to tell the truth. We are, if you go look at the research from a pathological perspective, you get pathological results. And so, I think the context was never studied in African American families. We really don't know what they do. We do now. And we're unraveling that because we're taking the time to see them as human beings and not as slaves, to be able to actually investigate what they really do want for their children.
Yeah. So, that leads me to ask you the question about safety, and the reason why I hear a lot of times, and again, it's unsubstantiated, because it's not research based, but the people I hear who may engage in this as a process, do it as a manner of safety, and that discipline to keep the child was in their grasp, so they don't go off and do something that will cause them harm or harm the family in some regards. So, if they're out in a grocery store and they're doing something, it is done to keep them in line, because they're thinking down the line, right? "I don't want the police involved. I don't want anybody else in my business. I need to make sure that you to put something in your pocket, because I'm thinking what that might be for not only you, but for us having to leave this store under those suspicious nature or under a suspicious nature or whatever, have you."
And then also, in terms of black boys to keep them safe, because they need to be able to be responsive to authority, so that they don't get out there, and like we see in present day, find themselves harmed by someone who says they shouldn't have been in this situation, they didn't comply, or however that might look. Can you speak to that?
Absolutely. So, when we study, when we take the time to study African American child discipline, we have to study it from a comprehensive aspect, not just the physical discipline part, which we've done before. So, if you ask an African American parent, "Do I spank my child?" Some majority or some may say yes, but that's not really asking the question. The question we need ask is, how do you discipline your child?
So, my findings have found, and the book talks about two in these findings, in that child discipline in African American families is on a continuum. So, that means the most technique that is used is discussion by far, discussion. Then of course, it's remind the child about what we talked about. The other thing that parents often do is they use the warning look. They may look at you sideways and say, "Don't do that again." Non-verbally. Then the verbal comes, "Don't do it again." But if they have to then verbal and then, or if it's older, maybe withdraw privileges when the child gets older. Physical discipline is used as a very last resort of the child discipline continuum,
Please, Dr. Adkison, speak.
Yes. And so, the research, my current research shows, and then historically, even way before me, I'm not the first one that studied this from a qualitative aspect, that Dr. Marie Ferguson Peters in 1976 is the one who went into the homes and say, "Hey, we have this phenomenon." Is what she called it. I call it continuum, because you got to tell the whole story.
So, from beginning to end discussion, and if physical discipline is used, it is age and context specific.
So, often if belt, if you will, is used possibly when elementary school age child. Usually it tapers off when the child is usually 11 or 12. It's done sparingly. But there's certain situations that warrant it, not all.
And so, those often is when the child is not just compliant, but the child is aggressive somewhat toward the parent saying like, "No, I'm not going to listen to what you have to say." In a blatant type of way. So, when a parent has done all of those things, then physical discipline may be used. But what we need to see is the difference between discipline and child abuse.
Discipline is a parent is using, you see this continuum throughout their journey of child discipline and preparing their children for the world, all things of the world, their happiness as well as their protection, and then also their spiritual growth too. And this is from an African perspective, not just an African American.
Wow. You have said more than the mouthful right there.
You said two, three minutes. I had to take a few more minutes.
No, no, no, because I think it's powerful because one of the things that you said with that when you brought up the possibility of understanding it from a continuum.
My mind went to the grandmother who says, "Go outside and get that sweet for me."
And there was a story before that. There was a narrative all before that.
That's right. And I told you before not to do that.
When that whole statement gets made-
... there's already a confirmation that that child knew that that wasn't something that they were supposed to be doing. And so, they were warned.
But then when you talk about they get breaks, right?
They get, "Okay. You got a pause on this one." But when you see the look, you are walking in some dangerous territory at that point.
And let me pull back. Dangerous is not the right word. You are walking in a pathway that will lead you to having to have some type of a punishment, that is little bit more than just me telling you not to do that.
That's right. And the book shows all those scenarios and real life ways from the voices of parents right now. This is not historically. These are parents right now, raising teenagers. So, you talk about African American male teenagers, young men. So, I have fathers in there talking about discipline. And they discipline different.
So, African American fathers, what my research shows, and African American mothers are two different perspectives of the continuum. An African American father on a mild situation will talk with the child. On a moderate situation, will talk with the child. On a severe situation, will talk with the child. Now, but if he has a 17 year old son who says that they're going to raise up, as they told me, then at that point, they say, no, now it's either, as they say, and in the book talks about there's one man in this house. "And this is my house. So, there will be one man."
It reminds me of a story. When I was a teenager, I got tired of my father telling me what to do. And I invited him out to the front yard.
He didn't take me up on the offer. Thank God. No, he didn't take me up on the offer. I think he found it humorous. Right? But I was like, "Okay. No, I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. Nope, this is not going to happen today." And he was like, "Mm-hmm (affirmative)." So, he didn't show up. But that was a whole different story. But there was so much love and respect for my father, that I did not want to disappoint my parents at all.
And so, I didn't do things that would cause me to get a spanking or whatever you want to call it, because I've revered them. And I also, and I want you to talk about this a little bit, I feared them.
Yes. Yes. So, attorneys when I work with them or not work with them, but some of the workshops and stuff, they talk about what's missing, sometime is that as they say, you didn't get your threat in. So, they tell parents, "Please don't bring us this child at 16 who's," as they say, "whooping up on you." When at three or four, there was something that was missing that the child didn't understand the hierarchical position that the parent has, or parents have in the household. And household doesn't mean a physical place in which parents have to reside. Because one thing my research shows is that it's not whether a mother or father are in the same house. Because I have findings that show whether they're outside of the house, and still the discipline continuum is the same in most places.
And there's a sense of respect. And again, when I say fear, I wasn't fearful of my father. But the fear I'm speaking of is the fear that I may do something that, not angers, because that's not the right word, because he wasn't necessarily angry at me. He was angry at the behavior.
And so, but there was also the other moments when I would've thought that he would've been upset. That he turned the whole narrative and wasn't.
Like the time that my sister and I ran down the hallway and busted a hole in the wall.
Right? So, we are like, "Oh, we're going to get it. Dad is coming at home." Whatever. Right? So, the fear, the thing that's coming up in us is that something is going to end up happening to us because of what we just did. And then he came home and said, "How did this happen?" And fixed it. And so, it wasn't that same dynamic. He was like, "Okay, I understood that. But you know that that was inappropriate."
And that goes with what you were saying in terms of time appropriate too, because we were older at that point.
That's right. And it was consistent throughout the developmental process. So, it's a developmental process as well too. The thing that disrupts that is that, unfortunately in counseling and psychology, we deliver different messages to children. And we deliver message to children, such as, "Relationships in your house should be democratic. Your parents are awful, if they say they're going to spank you. You can call the police on your parents." And so, kids are now thinking that, "Oh, I should be able to express my feelings anytime I want to, especially if I say-
Yeah, exactly. "Shut up talking to me." Is one of the famous things now teen teenagers are telling their parents. And then, court judges are trying to figure out why the parent is having a reaction. Well, the parent says, "Yeah. Now, you keep the kid." Is what the parents sometimes says.
Right. Right. So, the funny part about that, the flip of that is that's what's happening, that's the narrative happening in a lot of black households. Right? But the flip of that is a student or kid that goes into another household, and sees a totally different dynamic.
See a kid talking back to their parent or cursing out a parent.
And has been told it's okay. And I think that's the important part, Dr. Butler, is that when we sanction that as a profession and say, it's okay, or a kid isn't sanctioned, that they can curse at a parent, use curse because words in the house, or say, if your parents curse, then that's the reason why you're cussing, where it's okay. No, a parent, some have told me, "I may do this, but you're not going to do this. And that's just the way it is." Yes.
So, I saw a post on Facebook from a colleague friend, who put in a request to friends like, "How do I stop my kid from saying a certain curse word?" Right? And so, there was all this conversation about, they said it and they said, just like I do. It's like, well, one of the ways I stop my kid from cursing in the household is I don't curse in my house. And so, that's also a part of the lessons, right? Is that you don't exhibit the behavior for the child.
You can. And I would say, I think that's right. That's the ideal way. I would say that. It's we want to model the best we can, the best you know how. But we know parents are human too. But what we don't want too, is for kids, because what we had back then, I would say is that there was this message of respect for elders, that even though you may see an elder do certain things, that doesn't give you license or justification for you to participate in that as well.
Yeah. And it also tells me, I need to learn how to stay in my lane too.
I will tell you that when I am out and about, because of how I was raised, I sometimes look sideways at somebody who's doing something like, if there's an older person in the store and I see somebody cursing, I'm going to look at that person, and be like, "How disrespectful you are." Even if you know or don't know this person, that you would do that. If there's a child present, I would do that same thing.
Now, staying in my lane, I don't go out of my way and say something to these folks because sometimes people do things that are inappropriate.
Right. So, I'm not trying to inspire somebody to violence. Right? But that's kind of the things that go on. So, this has been wonderful. So, people can get all of this out of this book.
Yes. They can get the historical walk between all many scholars who try to approach this, and then also current realtime data of what parents are doing and saying.
So, I love this is how you got started in the counseling journey to get there. That has put you in this track for research and advocacy cause to this. Can you talk a little bit about how this was your destiny because of your life experiences? Can you relate to that in that way?
I think it's my destiny because I think spiritually, it was ordered for me to do this. I believe, it's a spiritual gift of being a counselor. It's something inside of me that breaks my heart when I see that people are struggling. And so, the way that it came to me to help was a sense of advocacy. For those who know me, I will advocate. If you feel that you can't build this wall, I'm going to make sure by the end of the day you're going to build it. You may not like me in the process, but that wall will be going to be done. That kind of spirit, I think is why policy work pulls me into the advocacy role, because you got to know your space and your gift, and your own personality. Whereas, other advocacy, people may do different types of things with people. But my calling appears to be, okay, how can the research that I do help dismantle systemic ways of racism that manifest in courtrooms, that manifest in policies that hurt and harm black and brown families?
Let's dig into that after the break. I would love to be able to talk to you more about policies and what inspires you in that regard. Because again, that's a social justice piece for me. It's not just go sit down with someone in a counseling room, you are actually out there doing things in the environment that helps these people go back out, and after they come for your counseling session, to live in the real world and be able to experience it from that way.
But before we go to break, can you answer me this? What do you recommend for counselors to do to become more culturally aware of how to work more effectively with African American children and families?
Go back to school, I guess. And here's the thing. What I mean, I think conferences are great. That's a good start. So, we got to have definitely content sessions, that where there is an educational part, because there is just certain basic things of education we have to be able to understand, so that we can do the surgery as Dr. Ken Hardy would say sometime in trying to work with families, complex families. So, we got to be able to do some time surgery, so therefore you got to be knowledgeable. So, I would say more of the educational types of training, along with advocacy and reading and the like.
I like that, because when you first said it, you said go back to school, I was like, "Okay. All right." But we should want to be lifelong learners.
That's right. That's right. And school means the educational arms at conferences. There are ways to actually have all day trainings, educational credit, that people can get that kind of training.
So, I like that too, because a lot of times people come back after they've been in your class. Right? They couldn't get it when they were in your class.
I've had so many students come back to me and say, "You know what? I didn't understand it then, but I get it now." Right? That would be the perfect time for them to go back to school.
That's right. That's right. And we got to create platforms now that we can, with all of this technology to do that, to make that happen. ACA can do that.
Oh, okay. All right. Well, let me see. Maybe I'll start a new task force. Carla Adkison-Johnson will be the head of this task force. No, we stop. Now, the work that you're already doing. So yeah, that is a great perspective in terms of how we can continue to move forward and to do the work that's necessary, because to be honest, we can't get it all done in two and a half years, and expect that somebody is going to be able to be culturally responsive, have cultural humility and work with any single person.
All those things are necessary, but they are not sufficient to do treatment.
Not sufficient. Wow. Wow. Here we are. Okay. See, that's a curriculum to be built right there. So yes, you're going to graduate from our program, but guess what? You're going to be back here.
You're going to be back in five years.
This is just, as we say, Dr. Mary Arnold said, this is just to have you stay in the room, that you don't leave the room in counseling. Now, the next level is now you got to do the treatment.
Now, you got to do the treatment.
Wow. Well, you ain't said nothing but a word. And this is wonderful. So listen, we're about to take a break. And I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and what you've been doing. I think it was said in such a way that people can really marinate with it and it can be something that inspire them to think outside the box when it comes to how we work with these young people and how we work with families.
How we work, thinking about our research, thinking about the way we're teaching our classes, all of that.
All that. So, this has been The Voice of Counseling. We're going to take a quick break. We'll see you in a moment.
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Welcome back to The Voice of Counseling. I am Dr. S. Kent Butler. And I'm here today with Dr. Carla Adkison-Johnson. And we've been having a phenomenal time, a grand old time, talking about cultural responsive behaviors and how we work with parents in regards to child discipline.
So, one of the things that came up in the first segment was, you're talking about what it's like to be doing expert testimony. And I've not had that opportunity in my career to be doing that, but can you talk about that? How do they find you, first of all? And what has it been like for you to be in that type of a situation?
So, it's interesting, you said that. So, it's been about seven years ago. And you just get this email when someone is looking for research. And so, one of the things is that you got to have something out there for them to find. And so, it's the research.
So, one of the articles that I wrote, I believe seeing African American as competent parents, was that one of the attorneys said, "Hey, do you do research in this area? I have a parent, that is brought up on charges of child discipline, which is more happening more than we think, but I'd like to bring in an expert because I have the state side of the story about that it's horrible. It's awful. But yet, it appears to be some research out there." So, that was where it starts. That's where it usually goes. And often when I'm contacted by an attorney, usually it's a public defender, rarely, prosecuting attorney, but usually a public defender that needs some help with the family.
What was it like personally to go into a space and have to speak on behalf of that?
Scary at first, because you're dealing with a court of law, you're dealing with, often they're criminal cases. You're dealing with where a family or a parent, usually there's a felony that's involved in and serious jail time. And so, the pressure is on.
The pressure is on that you don't want to commit perjury, and intentionally or unintentionally. And then, you have to struggle with, okay, because you review all the documents and you can't just have a personal opinion. You just got to be fact led.
So, that you can see maybe this parent did participate in child abuse. And you would have to be honest with the attorney, you say, "No, this is what I'm going to say." Or you let them know, so it can go either way. So, you got to be very mature, I think about the process.
Right. And so, you had talked about it being scary and having to work through some of that as you get in there. Looking in the eyes of people sitting across from you, that you're going to be talking about or at least giving feedback, or your own expertise on a situation. Can you talk about maybe the possibility of being cross-examined?
Is that also something that happened.
Yeah, it does. And one of the things is you first have to qualify in court for those that do expert testimony. And courts are often very more familiar with psychologists and psychiatrists, than they are with professional counselors from a research perspective. Definitely from us from a fact witness, which is that you're talking about what goes on in the counseling session, whether or not a child should go with either parent. But when you're talking in terms of research and trying to establish whether or not a child perspective is appropriate or not, counselors sometimes are not always on the first list to do that. And so, it was interesting to qualify. And I qualified of course, under American Counseling Association, my license, and my background to do that.
Now, first cross examination, I think the first time they tried to dispute it, but they lost that fight. And what helps is that you have to have a litany of research behind your name. It does help to say that and stand strong.
You need to know what you're talking about.
You can't just show up and say, "Hey, I'm the expert." And not have anything of substance to show for it.
And you have to educate the judge and the prosecutor on who ACA is, and who The American Counseling Association, how many counselors are they responsible for, what the flagship journal and the flagship journals are and how research is vetted. So, you do have to explain that. So, once they get an understanding, then they're on.
But you don't have to answer this question because it might be a little bit too personal in regards to that. But have you ever made an expert witness situation where you stated this, this, this, and this, and then you thought about it after it was over and said, "I could have went this way."
That's a good question. I would say there are times where, because sometimes you're nervous that I wish I would've said additional information. I would've come stronger, certain studies, because you got to sometimes cite, not just your work, but others before. It wasn't flowing.
Yeah. And so, that's where I wish I could've done it in a certain type of way. When you get cross-examined, that's just, those prosecutors are usually as someone from the assistant Attorney General's office, is the one that's cross examining. So, they're just gunning for you. And so, I've learned to be thick skin. I went through, just so to that, I learned too, I had to get training. So, it wasn't just my counseling. I actually went to, and I consult with an expert witness law firm out of Boston, Massachusetts.
And so, because of doing this a lot, so I also receive training from them as well.
So, I can imagine that you had to sometimes go, "I'm not going to let you do this to me today."
"Don't let Carla come out."
And you want Dr. Carla to come for you. You don't want Carla.
Yeah. There are times, and I had admit early on, I went there in the night, then I had to pull it back, because you're right. That's not helpful.
That's not helpful. Right?
So, I can imagine that all of this leads to understanding policy. So, can you talk a little bit about why it's important for counselors to not just be adept in what it is to be a counselor and speak in those terms, but it's also maybe the social justice piece too, of bringing policy into your expertise?
So, that's an excellent question, Dr. Butler. One of the things I even talk with my students about too, is that this can't be a trend for you. You got to know history. You have to know historical counts of you're dealing with African Americans in the United States. You have to understand all of what slavery was about and the laws that created slavery and the constitution. Because by understanding that when you're doing family work in systems, those same systems are using still outdated perspective.
Keep in mind, in our society, African Americans have been in slavery longer than they've been out. So, because of that, systems understand us more from that perspective and how that we need to be surveillanced when it comes with the caring of children and the like, because parents didn't have responsibility for children because they were slaves. The slave owner did, and the system did. So, that's where the laws and policies and understanding still is.
So, when you're approaching a system, you got to know what the laws say for everybody, but how, because they still may not see us human beings, how the law does not apply to us.
One of a couple of attorneys I've worked with, she's an African American attorney, who I published with DR. Attorney Dophine Payne, always was saying in her presentation, she said, "The first thing I have to do is make an African American client human for the law to apply." And so, the same thing in our research is that we have to know that the history enough to understand that when they see African American or Latinx families, you have to understand and explain it within a historical context. So, cultural humility and those particular perspectives are great, but that won't get you and keep you in the room when you're really trying to dismantle systems of oppression.
Can you talk more about that? Because I mean, it seems so logical that you need to make them human, but that just adds another layer to the work that you have to do.
And I can imagine that's exhausting.
It's exhausting. And that's where I talk about that educational piece. So, we know the multicultural counseling course is not enough to get at this, to recognize that they still don't see people who have been enslaved as human beings. So, once you get that, though, I will say, once you get that in your spirit and you get, then you're like, "Okay, now I'm ready to fight. I'm ready to advocate because I know how to deconstruct things."
And that's the key. But if we go in thinking that, "Oh, my heart is pure and I believe in social justice." That's exactly what you get. They'll say, "Well, that's nice. We're passionate too." This family still goes to jail.
Yes. Right. The reason that's why they're off the street.
That's right. That's right. We're protecting public from this evil human being. Versus going in and saying, "No, that standard or law that you have has not been applied fairly, because the research you're using to substantiate this case is wrong." Now, you're into the room where they have to question, because they don't want to be wrong. A judge does not want to be wrong on this decision that they make. So, now you got their attention. They'll say, "Well, okay, what do you mean it's wrong?" "Well, here is the facts."
You may be even beyond the policy. You may even think about that in law enforcement and how you see the human before you see the person that you think has done this behavior. Right?
What is it? Dr. Golf has been doing all that research on police brutality and that they see African American men in particular as this beast type. And so, it makes it easier for them to shoot them because they don't see that they're shooting a human being.
So, you can take children away from African American families because as some have said, "Well, they're used to it already." That's a dehumanized perspective.
I don't need you to say that again, but it hit me. That hit me hard.
They took the child away.
Oh yeah. So, when sometimes when you're in courts and when there's conversations, I've been in situations where... Or even say, we're dealing with CPS or social work and a child is removed, and that it goes something like, "Oh, well, the child is used to so much trauma in the home. This is probably better for them, than if they're in foster care than with this family." What they don't understand, it's still a child that's connected in that type of way.
But it's still, it's not because there's a sense that we just are embedded in violence all the time, our children need to be saved.
This is a strange question. Right? Because now you've got me wondering. So, when you go back in history, you hear about the black mother who has her children in slavery times. Has her children off somewhere, but she's here being a mother in some sense to a white child.
That's right. That's right.
And so, the disconnect then seems real that if you can say, "Hey, I can just take this child away from their parent." I'm wondering how it is tied to a white mother who didn't raise her child because she had some black woman come in and raise her child. Is that a part of that narrative?
Absolutely. Patricia Hill Collins, I believe was in 1996, it might have been her first Black Feminist Thought book. But if I have the wrong name of the book, but she writes just that. She says that when it comes with this whole, she doesn't use the term dehumanization, but where you don't see black mothers as mothers, is that yeah, their mummy role, and their role is to take care of somebody else's, even nurse somebody else's child. And that person, that other mother gets the classification as mother, when the black mother doesn't because she's a slave. So, it's a duty that you do. It's the serving of whites that gives you, for them that that's a role as if an animal would do that. So no, you don't have a classification of being a mother. Yeah.
Right. And then, if your viewpoint on life or your life experiences is that, then you don't have a problem taking a child away from their real mother.
That's it. That's how it goes. Yes.
Wow. So, let's bring it back to the students and the professional counselor.
And one of the things you said that was beautiful is that, "Hey, school is not over."
So, what are some of the things?
So, one of the things is petition their programs, and even CACREP to say, more courses need to be a part of the training for master students, for clinical mental health, for school counseling, for marriage and family, all the master's programs. Is that, besides the foundational, if we're dealing with a large number of African American, Latinx families and other groups, we probably need to have specific courses to get basic information. Now is the time. Before we said, "Well, as long as you know a little, that would help." No, we are here. Enough people have died. And children have been ripped away. And what we witnessed at the border, two years, enough is enough. We need more than basic, more than a general course. We got to start landing the plane on these issues.
And we need more than just people who feel good or who want to have a feel good moment.
That's right. That's right.
And say, "I care for you." But do you really care for me?
Are you willing to go and be a co-conspirator and help to change some of these policies?
Do you view other families that promise, do you view that other families should have the same rights and privileges and be able to raise their children as they see fit, even if you don't agree?
Even if you don't agree. Wow. Wow. So, is there anything that we haven't discussed today that you would like to touch base on?
So, the last thing would just be, what can professional counselors do? And I would say is that, remember what the code of ethics and ACA says is that this thing called autonomy. And that clients have a right to autonomy. And that means that when you're working with a client, that you need to help meet their needs. You're not an agent for CPS or other systems to surveillance families. Because what that means is if you're surveillancing your client, that means that anytime your client goes left, right, or whatever, you're cosigning what someone told you to do, as opposed to being an advocate for the client. So, I would say, if nothing else, remember this notion called autonomy when you're dealing with African Americans. You are their advocate. We hold you responsible for meeting their needs, not the system's needs.
You done school someone today. You told them go back to school, but you gave them a lesson right here too. That's beautiful. That is absolutely beautiful. So, I know that you are experiencing some weather challenges there.
Yes. Major snowstorm as we speak.
And so, you need to get out and take care of yourself in that way. Well, maybe my last couple questions to you is, what is Carla doing for self-care?
I get up at usually 5:00 in the morning, I pray. I pray. I pray to God for his awesome power, and then thanking him for the gift of being able to do this and the strength to continue to do this. That it pours into me that helps me to do. It helps me to recognize my humanity, that the minute I probably walk outside that room, I already said something crazy, because it's just the way I am. But that helps me to treat clients and meet them where they are, no matter what they've done. It humbles me to help from that aspect. And I buy shoes.
That's funny. You buy shoes.
You got [inaudible 00:48:51].
I got a narrow foot. So, because of that, it just so happened that Manolo Blahnik, something like that. I'm proud of every now and then. We have to do that.
So, you are heel. You're just tall.
I'm kind of tall. So, I don't do really the four inch, but I like a different kind of style type of. I got to do a two or three inch. It's usually nice and narrow, sleek, and has to be excellent leather. And so, those are my other indulges. That's the reason why I got to keep a couple of jobs, right?
Yeah. That's true. Right? But that's it. So, just a reminder to those of you who are looking for what's the perfect gift that you can give to Dr. Carla Adkison-Johnson.
Yes. Salvatore Ferragamo shoes, size 10, narrow.
I love it. I love it. Wow. You inspired me. You've always inspired me. I'm so glad that we have this circle that has come into counseling around the same time.
What people don't know is that Dr. Butler, myself, Dr. Cheryl Holcomb-McCoy, Dr. Deryl Bailey, and there's a host of other of us have at this thing forever in a day. And I thank God for all of them, because we kept each other sane.
Yeah. And on top of that, we hold each other up.
That's right. That's right.
And so, I appreciate you and all that you bring to the counseling field. We all inspire each other in certain ways, but you inspire the researcher. You and Cheryl, phenomenonal.
Phenomenonal researchers. And you kept us in toe, in terms of the things that we needed to do. So, thank you for all you do, all you're doing for the community, all that you're doing for counseling. Just a powerful woman. And I really truly appreciate having you in my life.
Oh same here, same here. I told you don't get me to start crying and falling out.
That's my thing. I got to make you cry. Anyway.
No, I can't. I refuse. I refuse.
I'm just joking. That's why we joke and we laugh afterwards, so the tears don't well up. But be safe getting home, and we will talk soon. All right?
This has been The Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. My wonderful, phenomenal guest today, Dr. Carla Adkison-Johnson. Much love to you. You all enjoy the rest of your day. We'll see you next time.