Announcer:
Welcome to the Voice of Counseling presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is the black male experience part three and features Dr. Cyrus Williams.
Welcome to the Voice of Counseling from the American Counselors Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and joining us today, Dr. Cyrus R. Williams. Dr. Williams and I have gone through the gamut of relationship, meaning that we met before we were even counselors and moved into the counseling realm together. I'd like to think that he followed me into this field. He'll probably say it differently. But Dr. Williams has been at Regent University for 12 years. He's a full professor and was the program director of the Regent Counselor Education and Supervision PhD program. Dr. Williams overall research interest centers on inter section of, of ethnicity, social economic status and education. He focuses on applying non-cognitive variables, such as hope, resilience and strength-based interventions to increase access, persistence, retention rates and their overall college experience for a first generations college students who are at risk. I like to think of him as that promise individuals and families.
Additionally, Dr. Williams is trained in Gottman marital counseling and he's a Gottman marital counseling therapist and a certified sex addiction therapist. I didn't really know that about him. It's pretty interesting. I am not sure what this is, but he is a John Maxwell certified coach. We'll get to that as well. In addition to working in higher education, he currently is the founder and co-owner of two private practices, Impact Counseling, Coaching & Coaching LLC and Rapha Counseling Services Incorporated, a faith-based nonprofit counseling agency. So without any further ado, let me bring in C.R. C.R. Williams, here we go. What's up Dr. Williams, how you doing?
How are you, Butler? I am well, I am well. It's good to talk to you as we probably did last night. No, I did not follow you into counseling. All right. There was life before Kent Butler.
There was life before Kent Butler but I like to think of the fact that you followed me into this profession and you've been following me ever since.
I followed a lot of people into this profession and you happened to be one of them. Respect to all of you. Seriously, we've been down since 95, 7, who knows?
I want to know how I even got to know you. I mean, you said that we met at Manchester Community College.
I thought it was before that or somewhere in between that.
We met at UConn. You were RA for the Upward Bound Program. Not an RA but-
Okay. And you were working and-
I was working in student support services program. And basically, you had no job and I had a job. So that's when we met.
I don't even know that even trying to suggest, but I will leave it alone. I was in my master's program, I believe at the time.
Yes. You were in your master's. I think you had finished your master's program. You were just starting your PhD program.
Okay. That makes more sense. All right. So Dr. Cyrus Williams from Connecticut, as well as I, took a stent out of Connecticut and moved to Florida, but then went halfway up the states to Virginia. Tell me about your experiences in Virginia, because you had some lively experiences while you were at Regent and also as president of a certain organization in Virginia?
Yes, yes. I've been in higher education my entire life. My post faculty life was in student services. I worked in the student support services programs, I worked in the McNair scholars program. So I've always worked with first generation, low income college students. Love that population. I got my PhD in 09' and in 09', that's when I said, I want to be faculty. I wanted to make an impact, a different impact. I love what I was doing with first generation college students. I am a first generation college student. I love that demographic. But then I went to Virginia at this small private faith-based institution, way out of my comfort zone, way out of what I've known.
I think I remember a conversation with you about whether or not that was the best pathway. Because even being a spiritual and a religious person, it was like, okay, do I need to sign this document that tells me that this is what I can and cannot do?
Yeah, yeah. Listen, It was out of my comfort zone, definitely. But it was something that I'm happy I did, certainly happy I did. There are some struggles with religion in general. I have them as well as other people. There are some great things happening at faith-based institutions. I am not precluded from doing anything. We do not hate anybody. Everybody can come to our school. So it's just-
Wait, wait, wait. Why do you have to say it like that?
Because people think that I don't have every demographic in my school, that we discriminate against students and population. You don't have to sign a faith statement to come to Regent. You don't have to be Christian to come to Regent. Half my students are not Christian, who come to Regent. So it was just that stuff that's out there, ridiculous stuff [crosstalk 00:06:01] out there about that. Huh? Yeah. Misperceptions are terrible.
So we had a conversation when you first started. I said, man, I don't know how you're going to do this, but one of the things that you had to do, and I think you still have to do is you all have to go through some service once a week, or once a day, or something like that.
We have chapel. Yes, we do have chapel. It's all Wednesdays. We don't have to go. We do go. And listen, some people would think it as weird and other people thinking it as just refocusing our ourselves and our lives. It has nothing to do with our work. You know, it's our commitment to our God. It's just weird. It's not terrible, it's just weird to be at work-
I was like if you can handle every week having to go and sit in there, I said more power to you.
It's like church man. It's church. I mean, I go to Sunday church every week. So it's no big deal. It's not a big deal, but it is weird. It is weird. I don't go every week.
What does weird mean? Why do you say weird?
It's just, I'm a public school person. I worked at University of Connecticut. I worked at the University of Florida. I couldn't talk about spirituality. I could never talk about that out loud. I did talk to people about it when they addressed it with me. But the joy of being here is I can talk about spirituality. I can talk about faith, specifically. I can talk about integration of all those aspects of us. The numbers are clear, 78, most of the time it's 80 to 90% of Americans believe in a God. And that is important to them.
So there is a higher power?
That's a good question. I do a lot of addictions work, but some deity, let's put it at that. It could be a higher power, but mostly is God. Mostly it is God and whatever that means to them. So to not talk about that, I think is a disservice to people and people are just uncomfortable talking about it because they don't want to obviously offend.
But you've been at Regent now a little over what, 12, 14?
Yeah, I just finished my 12th year. Yeah.
So 12 years there, if you were to leave there now and go back to a public institution. Would that be weird?
Yeah. It would because I've done it so long. If I were to go to an ODU around the corner, I'd be like, okay, I can't talk about these things any longer. I can't be overtly doing those things, but I would do it like I did at Florida and Connecticut. When people address me in those ways, I would engage. But certainly I wouldn't be up in front of the class talking about it as much. Certainly, I probably would talk about spirituality a little bit more than the normal faculty, but certainly not about a certain religion.
So you co-edited a book, a spiritual book that helps you integrate spirituality into counseling and things along those lines. Would you have done that, you think, if you weren't at Regent?
Oh, no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Absolutely not, I would never have done that. It was just a gap. Because we have to use every other book that everybody else is using, which is fine. And then we usually have a supplemental book that talks about some of the spiritual aspects of a discipline. So this discipline that I co-edited, the book was mainly, it was about career and career counseling. And what's better to talk about purpose in calling than in career counseling. So we're always talking about, we don't say it out loud, but we're always talking about why were you born, and what was your purpose, and what should you be doing, and what's your calling? So that's all fun stuff. So it made easy sense to do that with a career. And the same for me is with the addictions area. The addictions area, they talk about higher power every day, all day. It's not a secret, it's part of the 12 steps. So my next book is going to be spirituality in addictions counseling and I'm hoping that'll be out in the fall.
Okay. And now is that edited book or is that you just doing you?
Edited book, man. I need to stop these edited books because they're so hard. They're so hard to do, depending on everybody. But I like to give people opportunities. I like to give students opportunities. So it's nice to have an edited book where students can get on and do some stuff. I try to encourage faculty to bring on a PhD student to do that work, but it's just hard or slower process when you got so many people out there.
Well, the field of counseling doesn't have a lot of black male therapists and in counselor education, there's definitely not a lot of professors in this realm. And if you talk about it even further than that, there's not a lot of full professors in that realm.
Look like the light went out in their room. Did the light go out?
Yeah. It's good. It's good.
All right. Cool. So what's that like, from your perspective to being one of not very many...
You know what's weird about that when you say that? It's crazy. But you know what's weird when people say that to me? It's like, I'm so jaded that I don't even see that. Because I see all black professors, because I'm hanging with all the black professors. So I can go in a room of 25 black professors. They think that my perception is so off because that's probably 25 out of 125.
So that's like the circles that you're hanging out in. So if you're hanging out in those circles, you don't see the deficit.
You don't see the deficit as much. Obviously, I'm being silly. But you know, when you go to conferences and stuff, we all get together. We do that Wednesday. We have that Wednesday group of African American male CES folks. So I try my best to be engaged with the African American male population in this business. It's important for me because I've been in 12 years, you've been in much more than me and the numbers, it's encouraging. But every time I look around, it's still lacking. It's still lacking. And our voices are still lacking and we still got to do work in our departments because it's generally one of us. It's generally one of us. Now, the good news is we often have a lot of African American women, which is nice, but it's generally just one of us. And once they get one of us, I don't know a lot of staff, unless you talk about a historically black university where they have more than one, more than two.
I left out in that category.
Yeah. I know now, in central. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. So when you think about it, what can we do to increase the number of black males.
Black male CES or just LPCs?
I think all across the board, we need to increase them in coming into being clients, we need to increase them in maybe joining into the ranks of the counselor, and then of course council education.
Yeah. If you talk about just the master's level, I mean, I think we still have the stigma. We still got the stigma of mental health. We still have the stigma of emotions and feelings. That's still in our communities, African American communities, male communities. The machismo is strong, not just in the LatinX community, but in our community also. You know that word, it is strong. But I think we package ourselves. I hate it when our students come in and talk about, they say things like, "Well, I'm going to be a counselor. So you know I'm not going to make no money." I'm like, why would you sign up for that? We don't take a vow of poverty when we join this.
So stop putting that out there that you are not going to make no money. If you are not making no money, then you are not doing something right. Do something better. So I think that's package out there. I hate that package out there. We need to talk differently about what we do and how we do it. We need to train people about what it is to be a counselor and you can be any kind of counselor you want to be. You don't have to-
So when you speak to not making any money, because I think the flip side of that also is it's really about what are your goals for helping humanity especially people who look like you? So is it about the money per se or is it about you wanting to get to a part where you can help someone to find their personal wellness, so that they are not necessarily hurting and feeling like they are isolated in their situation?
There has to be a balance. There has to be a balance of trying to monetize your degree and trying to be happy in your life. So it's not about career in terms of job, it's lifestyle. It's lifestyle and it's making a life, not just making a career. So we don't want to just make a career. We want to make a life. So we need to package this as this is a part of your, and I'll use a church word, this is part of your life ministry. This is part of your world. This is part of what you do. Why would you, my degree from Eastern Connecticut State University, shout out to my Eastern folks, but I was an accountant and economics major. I was-
Yeah. That's another thing I wanted to talk about. How did you become a counselor?
I went to one interview and I was like, I am not going to do this for the rest of my life. I knew that wasn't going to be it. And I'm telling you, the thing that changed me was I started working with low income first generation college students. That's the whole circle. I started working with them one summer and I was like, this is what I want to do. This is what I want to do. I want to be impactful to people.
That's probably the best career that anyone could have is one that they walk into.
As opposed to like, my parents want me to be a doctor or my parents want me to be this or that. When you walk into your destiny and you can own it and accept it...
Yeah. There's a lot of stress. People come on these college campus running their parents career life. I mean, it's a lot of stress out there when you walk into it and say, this is it. This is my drive. When I walked in and I said, okay, so summer job, we're going to be doing some work with low income first generation students. I'm their age. And this going to be fun. We had a great time. I'm like, is this a real job? I didn't know it was a real job. Is this a real job?
Yeah. So let me tell you something. I talked with one of my former students that was an upper bound student, not too long ago. And she was like, "We hated you, Ken."
Yes. I know. Listen, I was there with you-
"But I love you right now. But we hated you because you were always on us. Here comes Kent. He's not going to let us have any fun." And I had to laugh at that because you were in SSS working with first generation students, I was working with high school students. And did they dislike you as much as they disliked me? Because we used to have them in the summer and we had to watch over them. I said, I can't send you back home to your parents in any other situation than what you came here with. So I'm going to be strict on you and whatever have you, but did you have that same thing going on?
Same thing. Listen, I still get calls every day, emails, Facebook, they hated the heck out of me every day. You on one side of the campus and I was on the other side of the campus with the college kids and same thing.
And trying to keep them separated.
Trying to keep them separated because you got high school kids, you got college kids. So yeah. The same thing. They hated it. They didn't want anything to do with me. I remember calling a parent at three in the morning saying, "You need to come get your boy." You got to come get your kid because he's not acting right or whatever. And she was like, "Send him home." And I was like, "No."
How do you send him home.
I thought she was going to cuss him out and fuss him out. But she was like, "Send him home." I was like, "No, I'm not going to send him home. I want you to cuss him out so we can threaten him so we can get him right. I don't need to send kids home. I don't want to send him home." The reason why I love student support services, because these kids didn't have a lot of options. And I had to be tough on them-
It was tough love though, it wasn't like you hated him. It's like, I was sitting here trying to make you have a better existence. And you know, what's really funny because they come to act now and they say, "Had I known then what you were trying to do then I may not have pushed back as much, but I appreciate it now," but they didn't appreciate it then.
They sure didn't. They sure didn't. I love it man.
So what is it about us that made us stay? What made you stay?
That's a good question. Man, that's a good question. Man, it's just that's the calling. It's what I'm committed to all people. But I'm certainly committed a lot to underdogs, to people who look like me, who don't have the opportunities like I did not. I don't know how I am sitting here Dr. Williams, I have no clue. I have no-
You know why. Stop that. You followed me.
I followed you, that's the reason? I have no clue. I went to a community college, I didn't even go to a four year institution in my first two years I graduated. I didn't go to a community college for a couple classes. I graduated community college. And then went through the regional four year college. There was nothing in my DNA, my SATs that said I was going to be a PhD, but it was just grinding, and grinding, and grinding.
And your grind also helped other students who were facing those similar types of situations find their grind, and continue to move forward. Because that was the thing, right. It was really pushing them to be their best selves that they didn't even see in themselves at the time, right?
We have a really good friend that we used to hang out with, you and I, and this woman by the name of Cassandra [Moui 00:21:20] we hang out all the time. So I want to bring you back to a situation because you know I hate movies and going into movies and-
Oh, my God. How you going to bring that up? I know what you talking about.
We had to have this conversation because it's really in terms of why we did it in the first place. So I don't do movies and you know that. I don't go to movies and I really don't appreciate them like you all had, but we had the situation with the students. I think you had the same students as I did in terms of the mindset. They went to go see this movie and they couldn't stand it. They came back, they were scared. We had to counsel them in a sense, to get through this movie. And so you kept saying to me, "We got to go see this movie."
Blair Witch, Blair Witch type of guy.
So the students came in and they were scared to go to sleep. They wanted to stay in each other's rooms, all this other stuff. We seem to say, what the heck happened? What was this movie? And you kept saying, "Come on, we got to go see this movie. You got to go see what these students were going through and why they freaking out and all these other stuff." I said, "I am not going to the movie." And you all sucked me into basically going to this movie.
And I was pissed at you all. I was so mad that I-
Going to the mall and we just drove down the street and there we were.
And I was like, "You all made come to this movie. And it was horrible."
No, wait, let stop that because if I don't know if we can get sued for that.
But let me just tell you, I didn't enjoy the movie. Let's put it that way. I did not enjoy that movie. It was the worst movie that I could have ever seen in my life. If it was Rotten Tomatoes or whatever happened, that put it on there. And I was like, why are these kids coming back acting foolish? And I said to you before we left that movie theater, I said, "This is not true. This is not real. This is fake. All this other stuff." And then at the end of the credits, they said, "This is a fake movie."
I remember, I remember. That was hilarious.
And then on top of that, we paid like $900 to go to the movie and it ended in 45 minutes.
Yes. I remember it was horrible. It was horrible. But those are the good times. Listen I remember right there, just brings me so much joy because here's the thing. I was with these kids and talking to them whatever. But I found a community of black people too. And I think SSS helped me in terms of finding some black professionals who-
Yeah. You were kind of wayward. Yeah.
Yeah. You're trying to... I wasn't no wayward, but I was trying to find some black professionals who were upwardly mobile. Because again, you got to remember where I come from, I'm a low income, I'm first generation. I'm at the University of Connecticut, never been to the University of Connecticut and I was a student there. And I'm trying to figure out what my direction is in life. So I'm sitting there and I'm starting to meet black professionals and that's-
A good circle. We actually had a really good circle.
I don't know if you knew about it before this, but I found Juneteenth with you all.
That's how I understood what Juneteenth was, was with you all.
Leo, if you remember, Leo was our limo driver.
We went to a couple of Juneteenths in the-
Wait and we were cutting up. Because Leo, for everybody who needs to know, Leo is a white male who was down with the cause. He just kept trying to hang out with us for the rest of his life.
No, absolutely. He's my buddy. My best friend, man.
So Leo had a little side gig where he was a limousine driver.
We cut the fool in that car because you're like, look at these black folks in this car with this white limo driver.
Yes. Leo worked with us. That's funny. He worked with us.
Yeah. He did work with us.
He was driving us to Juneteenth-
He worked for you. I mean, I worked with him for one year.
Yeah. Worked with me. That's a fun time. Listen, I think what's was really impactful, now I think about it, finding my way is to beat around my first real job. I was at Manchester before that, but my first real job at a real institution. And then I started seeing people like you are in the PhD program and Cassandra's doing counseling and I'm over here student services. And then we have Michelle and Akbar, all these other people in different disciplines. So they're real faculty.
Psychology. Yeah, they have the PhDs. Yeah, yeah. And they hung out with us.
And they hung out with us. And that wasn't normal. It wasn't normal. So assistant faculty were hanging out with us and we just had a great community. I think was very helpful. And that's why it's very important for me to be involved and see black men particularly, and really start just being with them. You don't have to do anything, just be with them. And then you don't have to preach to them. You don't have to tell them the rope. Just be, and then they're like, "I think I can do that. What do you do? Because I think I can do that."
What's your favorite part of counseling?
Oh, man. That's a great question. Favorite part of counseling? So about 77.5% of my clients are African American. I do couples counseling and I do individual counseling. The favorite part is when they come in that door and they see me and they're able to exhale, I think that's it. They're able to exhale because they've been looking for me, they've been looking for a black male. I got people, and sometimes I feel like that's no way to look for a counselor, googling black male. That's no way to look for a counselor.
Well, you could, but you might not like what you find.
That's what I'm saying, but I'm not saying they all do that. And I've been doing this for eight, nine years in Hampton Roads area. So I'm very well known and I get people to come to me and they're all related somehow. Friends of friends, hairdresser, other buddies. So they're all related. I can get them six separations back to somebody. So I like when they can come in and they say, "I tried somewhere else, but they didn't get me. They didn't understand me. I had to explain me."
Well, I guess it's helpful that you have Cyrus as a first name and Williams as a second name, because that might lead people to you, but you put Roderick up in there, you know-
Why are you telling my whole government name man?
Your government name. So these individuals will come in and see you and that gave you more understanding of your purpose?
Yeah and the importance of the purpose. The importance of it. My purpose was always to do some mentor, coach, guiding. I never to put a teacher. It was all together. But then this is why I left student services after 10, 12 years and went to mental health counseling and CES, is because I knew there was more to do. I knew there was more to do and what's important for me is to be in a position that when you're ready, I'm here. When you're ready, I'm here. I'm not going to go, blow a horn and try to get you over here. But when you're ready, I'm here and you come through and we're going to do some work.
Yeah. Well you said something that was really powerful in terms of using, words matter, but you said they were able to exhale. What was it about them walking through your door and you being able to experience that, that gave you I guess the drive to continue to do the work that you do. Because it sounds like when you say they exhale, that you were able to physically see or feel-
In here, in here, they would say it. And so it wasn't like I had to figure it out, they would say it. They would say, "Man, my husband won't go anywhere. He needs an African American male," or, "I'm sick and tired of trying to dress up my words, my experience so I can match their experience. I need someone who can understand me and not try to figure me out why they're trying to help me."
Yeah. I think that's really crucial. And then one of the things that you bring up too, is that there's so many different types of black male educators and counselors that could be there supporting folks because your life experiences helped you work with a certain population of folks who can come through your door. You grew up in a sense, in New London and dealing with things in first generation, I didn't have that same experience. I grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood. I had parents that were still together and doing the work that they were doing to bring us... My mother went to college before I had the opportunity to go to college. So our life experiences weren't the same, but how do we come to counseling and work with our clients really is a symbolic of our life experiences.
Absolutely. No matter what, we still have a cultural foundation, that permeates all socioeconomic and all communities. It just is what it is and I can help the low income folks and I can help the high achieving educated person now. Because if you keep growing and changing, your competency changes.
Yeah. Cool. So listen, man, we need to take a break. And we'll do this break and we'll come back and we'll talk a little bit more about some of the things that you're doing. I would love to hear you talk about having two businesses and not struggling but, using those as well as having a full-time job. So let's talk about that when we come back after the break. This has been the Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and we'll be back in a moment.
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Welcome back to the Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. And today we're talking with a friend of mine from many, many years ago, Dr. Cyrus Williams. And so Cyrus, before the break we were talking about how do we get involved in this life as a counselor. What are some of the motivations and what do you see as your role in mentoring, I guess, African American males into the profession?
Yeah, listen, we need to in my mind, we all, as a group, not just the African American males, we need to be intentional about this. This has to be a goal. It has to be a goal. We need to do things differently. Like for instance, this might be off a little bit, but we need a feeder program. We need to develop a real feeder program with the historically black and colleges and universities. We need a feeder program. We need for the profession of counseling. Social work has a feeder program. Psychology has a feeder program. We need a human services or counseling feeder program. And then-
Okay. So at the undergraduate level?
At the undergraduate level.
And help students find the pathway there. There's certain programs that have it, but-
... that 43 whatever, call that number program. They had that program that goes right into the master's program. We need much more widespread of that. We need to go to the undergraduate world. If I would've known as a junior in college, if this was a profession, I probably would've said yes. Because I didn't want to be a psychologist, I didn't know what that was. And we didn't have a social work program that I was interested in. But if I had known, I would have said, okay, let me try this. I think we have to do that. The undergraduate programs, we have to be more intentional, have more recruitment in there. The other part is once they're in the master's program, we got to keep them. We got to keep them. People are leaving. People are leaving the profession. So that's why it's so important for-
It's really important to talk about why they're leaving the profession. So a lot of times they're leaving the profession because they don't see themselves in the profession, right?
Exactly. They don't see themselves in the profession and they're looking around, they don't see males and they certainly don't see African American males, and they don't have anybody to talk to. Like I said, I'm jaded in I see all African American males, but they don't see any African American males.
Right. So when they're in their programs and they don't have faculty members who can relate to them, don't have cultural humility, so to speak, to be able to deal with them in that space and time, so-
... and they get out. So this is what at the ACA level, at the divisions levels, like the state levels, we need to be doing things in the schools. We need to give them free memberships to VCA. We need to give them free memberships to ACA, in the master's program. We need to do that. We need to reach our HBCUs and we need to say, hey, we're here. We're around the corner and this is a counseling program.
With some accountability in measures in place too. To say we're going to give you this, but you going to have to give back something as well.
Absolutely. If we give you a free membership, which we did last year, we had a BIPOC scholarship in Virginia Counseling Association. I mean, you need to come to our leadership seminar that we have, training we have. You need to be a part of a division. You need to go to the conference. You need to do all those things because we want to wrap you significantly into the community.
So what do you say to the person who says, "Well, that's a handout. Why should we give that to someone?" What would you say to the person who would have a negative response to having the scholarship? Because that's what we come up against often.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I was the president of Virginia Counseling Association. And no one says anything to you, but you can feel it. You can feel the, why are we doing this and why not? I'm just going to say because you're not serving the communities that need to be served. I mean, I hate to say it that way, but you're not serving that community or that community is not seeing in you, that you can help them.
And also helping them understand because I think you sit there and they say, "Well, I didn't get a handout." And I say, well, you don't look at it so much as a handout. Did the farmers get a handout when they had the subsidies that were coming up for them to be able to keep their farms going? So you have to look at it as a give and take in a sense, to try to grow the type of individuals and people that you want to have. So if you're sitting here saying you want intersectionalities to come and be a part of this and to be a part of inclusivity, to be a part of it, then you're going to have to find ways that's going to entice them to be a part of that.
And I don't mean that it has to be money or whatever have you, but you think about all the things that we do in our lives. So we go to different conferences and we go to different receptions, so to speak. And we eat the food in the reception. Do we think of that as a handout? Because that's what we do. We don't go to a restaurant or whatever have you, we go from reception, the reception or whatever have you, and then we partake. So it's like, this is how you entice people in. And so find ways that you can entice someone in so that they will be a part of it instead. So-
And the fruit from that is just great. I mean, people talk about diversity and they talk about inclusion, talk about all that. But when it comes down to investment, and if it's financial investment, they change their tune a little bit. That's when the rubber meets the road. It's like, yes, you believe in these things. Okay. We're going to have to entice. That might mean this, this and this. That might mean taking money out of here and putting it over there and that's-
You can't do it based on what your life experiences have been. You have to do something in terms of how do you invite somebody else in so that they feel comfortable in that experience. So you created these two companies.
And co-founded them and moved them to fruition. Talk about the importance of ownership and you being an African American male and having this for your community.
Yeah. Listen, it's critical. It's critical that they see us in all institutions, in all areas. I never wanted to be an entrepreneur. It just happened. I was like, listen, I got to do this.
You actually went to school.
I did go to school. I did.
You took extra class or two outside of what you were studying.
Oh, my gosh. A lot. Yes. Because there's stuff out there, there's opportunities out there for you to learn these things. The thing is, I talked earlier about being broke and people saying, oh, this is about poverty to be a counselor. That's not true and I don't believe that's true. If you want to open up and be an entrepreneur and open up your own business, do that. Because for me, it takes care of me financially. I get a little couple of bucks. It takes care of my calling, and my purpose, and my life and it takes care of community.
Also, having some financial responsibility, meaning that, no matter what you do, you still have to learn to live within your own means.
So if you start living above your means, then of course it's not going to be successful. And of course, you're not going to make the kind of money that you think that you're going to make, because you're always trying to grab at how you're going to pay these bills.
But if you want to increase your living in that means, then you have to do something else, that's what I did. It's like, I got to open up this business and it's going to be a win for a lot of people because there's a dearth. There's a blank. There's nobody here in this space. So it was important for me to open up and I'm going to tell you something that I get upset at my LPCs and I'm talking to my LPCs now. It's the trend not to take insurance. People just don't take insurance. And they say, yeah because of this and that, and payment, and third party stuff. I get it. I get it. But listen, people can't afford these counseling. You are cutting out completely a demographic. And I'm not talking about the poor, poor folk.
That's a great social justice clause right there.
That's the social justice part. And let me go one step further. And again, they hate me for say this, but they all should be taking Medicaid but they won't. They won't take Medicaid. I'm like, listen, I take Medicaid. You know why? Because there's a population who needs to be seen, who are not being seen. They're going to the community service boards, no disrespect to the community service board, but they're understaffed and they're taking everything and anything off the street. And we need good quality therapy for all demographics in our communities.
When I hear you say that, it sounds like people don't do that because they don't think that's lucrative. Is that the truth? Is that the reason?
I will say they may not say that out loud, but I believe that. They will say something about paperwork too. They will say something about third party people being in the business, but it's lucrative.
Is it ever about, do you think you hear them say that it'll change the type of clientele I have and I don't want to work with that-
They won't say it out loud. They won't say that out loud but that's the truth of it. The truth of it is I got this nice business and I'm going to have this one person sitting next to this other person out in the lobby and that might be a problem. Or these Medicaid people may not be able to come to counseling regularly and be late to... All these stereotypical, ridiculous things that are out there. Now, they won't say that out loud, but I'm going to challenge all the LPCs to take Medicaid and listen, we can talk about pro bono all day. We don't got time to talk about it, but pro bono has some ethical issues in it.
Okay. You talk about that. What's the ethical issues in it.
Oh, my gosh. You going to make me... Well, the pro bono, first of all is, nobody beating your five o'clock hour. So if you have a pro bono person, they're not getting your five o'clock session, or your six o'clock session, or your 9:00 AM session because they're pro bono. And you going to reserve that to your clients who are paying. So there's some ethical things and some human things of, I'm not taking my pro bono. My pro bono's going to be at two o'clock in the afternoon, three in the afternoon, one o'clock in the afternoon. So there's that kind of ethical part. The other is, are you working as hard for your pro bono as you are to your paid person? Are you? Now, everybody will say yes. Everybody will say yes, but if they miss a day, are you calling back? Are you calling back? Are you really invested in all of it? Now, they will say, "Yes, I am." But I'm like...
Blowing all the closets right now. Aren't you, man. You-
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But we're all human. We're all human. And our paid $200 client is getting the five o'clock. Pro bono is-
So what you're bringing up is a very good point. Is that, if you say that you here to help and support individuals get through whatever it is that they're going through, then this should be open to anyone at a time that you're going to be able to give your best self. Because also what I hear in that is like, sometimes you give them the slots that when you know that you are tired and not at your best, because you're giving it to the people who you say are your paying clients.
And listen, they're good people out there doing pro bono work, first of all, it's one hour, two hour, three hours a week maybe, and it might be with their residents. Again, we're talking about quality of care, nothing wrong with residents. Their interns might be their pro bono. It's not like they're getting to the boss. So I'm not here to come at people, I'm just saying you don't even have to advertise you're taking Medicaid. Just go, you know the communities around, and just say, if you need somebody, I can take them. I think you need to be committed to that. I think you need to go, also, some of the people who are most needy are in in-home counseling, intensive in-home counseling, they're in skill building programs, they're in IOP programs. Those are the most needy people and people don't want to work with them. They don't want to work with them.
I'm like, no one of these in home places and say, if you need an outpatient, I'll help you out. I'll take a couple of them. I get the hesitation, I get the money part. But if you really want to do this business of working with the underserved, then you need to take Medicaid. You need to consult with in-home, skill building and all that. You need to open yourself up to that. And not just one hour a week, four hours a month for your intern. We need to do that. I just challenge people to do that.
So I appreciate that. And I think, there's so many messages in there and I think people can take it wherever they want to go in regards to that. But the message is for me, is like, if you really truly are about helping others, it shouldn't matter who they are.
Exactly. It shouldn't matter if they can cut a check for $200 an hour, it should not matter. I have both, I have this Impact Counseling is my LLC and I take Medicaid. I take them because it's important for me, for them to get good quality care. I have my faith-based nonprofit because that population is looking for real faith-based counseling. And it goes with Regent University and what I do there. So that's another population and I don't do a lot of counseling over there, but I hire a lot of people to do that type of work. It's just get into people who need what they need.
Right. Who? So what does Cyrus Williams do for self-care?
Huh. I've been working out three days a week for 30 years. So that's what I do all the time. I love doing that. I have this beautiful little 15-year-old girl and I learn stuff with her. So we bake together, something that people don't know. You might not know. We bake.
I am eating none of it. I'm not eating one thing that you bake.
Whatever, man. Our stuff is good. She going to bake a thin mint cake today. A thin mint cake today.
So listen, I do know this. This is the funniest thing I know about you.
On Sundays you go out, I think, it is even the winter weather and you grill for the week.
I forgot about that. Yes.
And I was like, "What are you doing?" "I'm outside grilling. I got all my food ready for the week." And I was like, "What in the world?"
I do it for the week. It's crazy. My mother won't even eat. She's like, "Them leftovers." I'm like, "Mom, come on." I grill for the week. I love grilling, I love to cook and I love to bake. I'm not great at either one of them, but I like to do them. So I'm-
After all these years of grilling, you not good at grilling?
It's a means to an end. It's a means to an end. Do you at least marinate? Do you marinate?
I'm not as well, not sure.
I can look right at your face right now. See, you don't marinate.
That's horrible. I don't want no dry chicken, dude.
Man, my stuff is good. My stuff is good. It's helpful for me because I'm not mechanically inclined. So I like doing things with my hands that I can do. I mow the grass. I love mowing the grass because I can do it. I don't have a lot of skills. My skills are my-
Wait, wait, I'm going to stop you right there.
Do not even put that into the atmosphere. You got a lot of skills.
I got a lot of skills. They're not handy skills.
Don't even put that. They're-
They're not handy skills but you sit in front of me, boy, I can work it out now. I can work some stuff out if you sit in front of me, if you're a couple, if you're an individual and you're struggling somewhere, that's my skill base. It has always been my skill base.
Yeah. That's pretty cool. So yeah. So I know about the grilling and all that other stuff. So your hope for the counseling profession, your hope for-
... the people that you're working with and for, what would that be?
Oh, man. Okay. I hate to start it off negative, but I'm going to for a second. Listen, psychology is coming for us. They're coming for us. They're going to be a licensed psychologist at the master's level. They're coming. I need us to be secure and to be known as therapists. And I want this profession to be everything it's supposed to be. Not just internally, because we know we're good at what we do, but externally people need to know who we are and what we do. And when the psychologists come, they're coming strong with a lot of people in the infrastructure. I just hope that we can get a national feeder program. I think that'd be [inaudible 00:50:55], that'd be great.
I wish we could get some real inroads into our HBCUs at the very least, but at the most get into the schools and get folks. I didn't talk about school counselors, we need African American school counselors desperately. We definitely need those in our schools because they're going to stop the wheel for us. They're going to be like, "You're a counselor. What is that?" At 15, at 18, they're going to be talking about that. So I think they're unsung in terms of our feeder program.
Take the shame out of it. Take the shame out of-
... what going to a counselor would mean. Because so many people use the media's interpretation of what counseling is, in terms of it's the person who's crazy over in the corner that you keep locked in the bedroom. No. Counseling is mental wellness.
Listen, they running us out here and run us out time, man. The timekeeper look at her. She keeps coming at us, man.
You don't have to... So you are funny. And so in a very real sense, we're running out time in terms of helping people find their promise in what they have left in the world. And so we as counselors have the ability to help them find themselves and to find... I think about the number of people who are losing their lives, dying by suicide and all these other things, we have to get out into our communities and we have to be able to see and help people who are hurting and that's our gift.
Now, this may not make it to the tape, I get it. But what I want to say is this, what an awesome job we have to be able to sit with people in their grief, in their worst, when they're confused, when they need, we are the holder of their secrets. It is cool job to be able to walk through somebody who needs you at this time, and you, in this season of life, you can help them through that. That's a cool job, man. And that needs to be on the billboard somehow. That's on the bumper sticker, somehow. It's got to be.
Yeah, it's just a cool job and I love it.
All right. Well this is from the Voice of Counseling. We've been hanging out with Dr. Cyrus Williams and you have it. He's told you what to do. He gave you the charge. So we'll see you next time.
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