Welcome to The Voice of Counseling, presented by The American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S Kent Butler. This week's episode is The Black Male Experience Part Two, and features Dr. Isaac Burt.
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling from The American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler, and joining us today is Dr. Isaac Burt. Dr. Burt is an associate professor who received his PhD from the University of Central Florida in Counselor Education. He is a member of The American Counseling Association, as well The Association for Counseling and Supervision, Association for Multicultural Counseling and Development, Association of Humanistic Counseling, Association for Specialists in Group Work, and Chi Sigma Iota. He has dedicated his career to multiculturalism. Dr. Burt has served the counseling profession in several capacities such as being a member of the Membership Committee, the executive board chair of the Strategic Planning Committee, and the vice president for AMCD, actually president soon, hopefully at one point, but he was a vice president for Native American concerns. Dr. Burt is also a former editorial member and current associate editor of the premier journal for multiculturalism in counseling, The Journal of Multicultural Counseling and Development, and former editorial board member of the Premier Journal for Counseling in Groups, the Journal of Specialists in Group Work.
Additionally, Dr. Burt has 18 years experience in schools, and this is what's really interesting because he's not that old. So 18 is pretty interesting for a number right now, because it's really making me feel old. Mental health agencies and community centers which include counseling individual couples and families from the Caribbean, Africa, Latin America and Bosnia, as well as multicultural populations born in the United States, specifically black African Americans, Latinos, Asians, and the LGBT community. He has an interest in social justice from a historically marginalized populations perspective, and he is culturally sensitive in how he uses his treatments with those populations. So with that, I am going to call in Dr. Isaac Burt. How you doing, sir?
I'm doing pretty good, Dr. Butler. How about yourself?
I'm doing well, I can't complain. It's good to see you, good to have you here. Can you tell us a little bit about what's been happening in your day? What's going on? How you doing?
I'm doing good. I do want to say one thing, I appreciate your comment about me not being that old because my children tell me all the time that I am that old, so I-
Well to them, you definitely are. To them you definitely are. It's very interesting because you graduated from the University of Central Florida how many years ago now?
I graduated in 2010, so about 11 years ago.
Wow, it's hard to believe. Isn't that hard to believe that that's 10 years ago, 11 years ago?
Yeah. I look in the mirror and I'm just like, man. I think time has changed, but it doesn't feel like it. So sometimes I still think I'm that doctoral student working hard.
Working hard, working hard, that doctoral student. So what are your fond memories of being a doctoral student?
Well, it's funny. We were doing the interviews the other day, and somebody mentioned the ACA president. And I said, "Yeah, I know him, I know him quite well. He was my mentor at UCF." So one of the most fondest memories I have is me being there around 10:00 at night, and you still being there and working on manuscripts at 10:00 at night on a Friday.
And you being mad at me saying look, I got to go home.
I don't think ever said that. I just... I might got mad at you, but not mad about going home.
Yeah. There was something about that, though. I think that's the key to moving forward in this profession is recognizing that sometimes time is not your own, right?
True, that's a very good point. I learned that very early in my tenure there.
Very nice, very nice, very nice. So moving forward to present day, you just said your kids. So tell me little bit about yourself and what's happening when you're not in the counseling realm.
When I'm not in the counseling realm, that's a good one. With COVID, it's kind of hard to put that into perspective. But just still trying to keep a normal life, being a father, having a eight year old and a four year old, married, trying to make sure that with not necessarily quarantine, but we're homeschooling. So having that chaotic nature in the house while still trying to have duties such as hey, being on an interview like this without having them running in the background and still just trying to have a life, still trying to be healthy, eat healthy, work out, do the things that buffer against all the craziness that has just been perpetuated by COVID.
Nice. Well, I'm glad that you seem to be surviving and thriving in all of this. You said homeschooling. Is that because of the pandemic, or is that something that you choose to do with your children?
It's kind of 50/50 there. We were already thinking about it beforehand. And then when COVID hit and just the dynamic of the schools and just the curriculum, and just the obstacles that were there on the forefront, we just said we can always put our kids back into school so why not try it out, see how it works, see how they can learn, and then just go from there. I mean my son is the one that's still in school. My daughter is a little bit too young. But for my son, there's also aspects that we do take him out and obviously have a social aspect to it. But we really wanted to hit that academic aspect in a way that we thought was going to be most beneficial for him. And you being a school counselor, you know that there's a lot of high stakes testing, even though we don't necessarily call that anymore with that terminology, but you do realize that that's in there. So we're trying to avoid that and have a more robust understanding, and for him to really learn at a pace that's appropriate for him.
Nice, nice. Well good, good, good. So let's transition to your career after your PhD. You've been down at FIU?
At the university, and you are an associate professor there now, and you are doing some great work there. Some of the work that you're doing is involved with social justice issues. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Sure, sure. I can talk about it from about two different perspectives. There's a lot of ways that we define social justice now. Obviously, there's been this big brouhaha about what social justice is. But how I look at it from my vein is looking at historically disenfranchised and marginalized populations. And that can obviously take also a very broader perspective, but I'm looking at black, Latino, Asian, people that historically in the United States were looked at as being "minority." But that also encompasses LGBQT, women, even poor or socioeconomic status as well, so coming in through that perspective and trying to create interventions that actually practice what we preach by developmentally reaching out to these populations that do not, are not getting the services that they require.
So it's good for you in regards to doing that. How does that impact your counselor education identity?
Yes. That's one of the things and just to be honest, I believe that it's a process. How I was when I first graduated 11 years ago, I still have some similar research interests. But how I perceive it has changed, and I think that's good. It's a process, and we evolve. So-
We've got to evolve. Yes, we have to evolve, yes.
Yeah. Yes. So when I first started it was very much looking at just okay, just race, and perhaps a little bit of gender as being a male. And as it is now, and with my exposure to a myriad of different things in academia which has exposed me to how political aspects influence academia and just the whole shebang of that, it's kind of changed. I'm looking at a more political social aspect, but still having an individual basis. So that might sound a little bit convoluted, but it has changed from just looking at race and gender to looking at how political social aspect impacts on a systemic level, but also looking at how the individual level can buffer against some of those systemic issues.
So how did that evolve? How did you get to that perspective that you're using right now?
Yes, that is the million dollar question here, and I'm sure there will be some other million dollar questions as well. First it came from my own personal experience. I'm trying to not mince my words, but my experience with tenure was a very eye opening one. It wasn't an easy experience, even though it should have been. So that gave me this opportunity to see what's going, it's not just what you're doing, but it's who's perceiving it and what their perspective is. So once I did obtain tenure, I started looking and started branching out to a more broader level, like seeing what's impacting these, what are these systemic issues? We've talked about systemic racism, discrimination, but until you've really seen it and faced it and encountered it, not just no, we're here for the glass ceiling, but until you hit that glass ceiling and you've shouted it and gotten cut for a bad analogy, but gotten cut by the glass, you're like, wow, these things are real, and how can we combat this?
So that made me go from just this narrow perspective of just race and gender to looking at political, social aspect, like what's influencing the decisions of people who are in power. But it also made me think about well, what about the individual who experiences this?
Yeah, yeah. I was sitting here looking at your bio for a second as you were sharing that, because one of the things that came up for me when you were talking just now is your journey has gotten you to be a published author of 29 journal articles, 21 of them being you as first author. Did you see that in your future? Because what was that like? When you were going through your doctoral program, and I believe you were being pushed by your mentors to do a different thing with your writing or to find ways to find yourself in your writing, you spoke a little bit earlier about being there at 10:00 on a Friday evening and things along those lines. Do you think that supported you to get to 29 peer review articles in just 10 years right now?
Definitely. This is me being as transparent as possible. When I write I still have your voice in my head, and I have Dr. Young's voice in my head. I know, that's why I said sometimes it doesn't feel like it's been 11 years because when I'm writing I hear you saying, Isaac, what's the true point of this sentence. I hear Dr. Young stating okay, be succinct, be succinct. And it's like, okay. And I want to say they're my mental checkpoints, because I can write and I'm just like... And I'm just typing and it's going well, and I'm like okay, does this really make sense? Do I need to narrow it? Do what I need to add something to it, like what's the point of this? Is somebody who is unfamiliar with this topic going to understand it? So for me it's that mental checkpoint which I think is really good, because it allows me to remain humble and not get too much on my own like oh wow, I'm really killing it, aren't I? It's like well maybe, but maybe not. Just, you still want to be able to have people understand what you're stating.
Well, I think it's really important that the message you just made is that being succinct helps you to realize that you have a message that you want to put out there and get through to other individuals. And though you are always been a good writer, writing for a journal article is something that is totally different and one that you gravitated towards. So your evolution to getting to where you are is a powerful one, right? Because there are not a lot of people out there especially in the realm of multiculturalism, writing the types of things that you're writing that are necessary. So that on top of having the kind of research agenda that you have and being this published, is a phenomenal thing. So you should be proud of that.
Well thank you, thank you. I had some tough mentors. I had some good mentors. I will say that when I was going through my doctoral program, well, we got put together but I still chose you, and I chose a couple other people for my dissertation committee. And my mindset during the time was, at this time I have kids and a wife so I don't really play basketball anymore. But at the time, I really was thinking about the greats in basketball. I was looking at LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade. And Kobe Bryant, may he rest in peace. I felt like, how did they get this good? They didn't get this good just because they wanted to be good, they had to surround themselves with people that were willing to push them, not just what they were willing to do themselves, but having that social aspect of being pushed. Yes, yes.
So having you all as that pushing me and my own inner drive just amplified the process. And even though it was tough, I'm not going to lie, but I said, that's how you get to be great. You get to be great by pushing yourself and sometimes being pushed in directions that you're not comfortable with, but you're able as you say to evolve, and-
I think that's a key word. That's a key word is that you weren't comfortable with, but willing to engage in that process. And not necessarily knowing what the outcome was going to be, but believing in your mentor who was telling you that you are going to get to greatness by going this route. So I think that's what I hear you saying in terms of that. So how do you use this now in terms of the people you're mentoring?
That's a good one. I still struggle with this and I think that's part of the development, because I can get very hardcore. I wonder if that strategy may not necessarily work for everybody, it worked for me. Also as just a side note, I take martial arts. So for me it was, I kind of romanticized it and thought about it as these great mentors at the traditional martial arts movie, the novice had these great masters that are hard on them and they push it to the limit. So I kind of romanticized that for myself, and thought of you all in that capacity.
So you were able to get through it. That's how you were able to get through it.
Yes, yes. In addition to having this idea of what do these great basketball players do. So for me in the process that I am now, because we don't have necessarily a doctoral program, but we have master students here. But then we have people who are outside that come to me and ask me for how should I do this. And I'm like, I'm still to be honest, still struggling with that process because I'm like, okay, hardcore, hardcore, hardcore, this is how you do it. You stay up, you do this. I'm learning through my own research that this grinded out on everything that you do, even though I romanticized it, may not necessarily be the most appropriate way to become great now. There's a lot of different ways you can become great, so I'm still struggling with that on what is the most adaptable for myself and the people that come to me for mentorship.
Yeah. Just very much like a counselor, right? When you see someone you know what you can do, how far you can push them before they fall off the beaten path, so understanding and knowing your client, or knowing your student or knowing who that person is. Because I know for myself as an instructor, there are certain students I won't touch with regards to being hard on, so I'll come at them in a different way. And there are certain students who I have a different connection with that I will be tougher on because I know that they can either understand it or handle it, to be able to move forward. Do you see that as part of what you're talking about when you say the struggle that you're having working with these different individuals?
Yeah. I definitely see that the struggle is that sometimes you think you know more than what you do. So when I'm working for instance, with the example that you gave on an individual that may not necessarily be able to take it, a part of me in my mind is saying perhaps you should be able to take it, perhaps that's what you need to work on. And it's like okay, how far do you go? Is it baby steps? Can you take a big jump? How do you work with this individual as being now that you have this label of mentor placed on you where you see at least for myself, I see myself as still constantly developing. So that's what I meant by a struggle because I know what I think works for me, but I'm learning perhaps there's another method that can work for me to make it even better for myself.
Then when I see new people coming in I'm like, where are they at on this developmental process? Are they ready to take this leap? Is it baby steps? Or do you just take a step back and just let life happen to them, and how long will that process be. So perhaps it's over analyzing it to extent, but I do tend to do that when there's new processes like what this is for me, like one of the weirdest instances when people come to me asking me for mentorship and I'm like, "Really? Okay, sure."
Yeah, that's a hard one, right? Because that's a question you're like well, I'm just this person. And they see something in you that you don't necessarily hold onto, or you're not beholden to it. So when somebody says well, I read this that you've done, you're like, "You read that?" You know what I mean? It's like one of those things. It's like yeah, you put stuff out there and you don't even think about it in that capacity, that someone would actually look at that or look up to you, or see you in a different capacity than you present or see yourself being. So I understand that. I understand that wholly. So your career has now led you to do a couple different things. I mean one of the things that was very impressive is that not only did you start off by struggling being a writer, you took that to the next level and became a junior editor and an editor and all these other things in journals. Can you talk a little bit about what that was about and what led you there?
Yeah, that was me just trying to get a grasp on what the field and what direction that it's going into. One of the things that you spoke to me about during my doctoral program was being on top of the literature and understanding just the trajectory of where the field is going. Because if you don't know just where the evolutions are, I'm just using this term, just where the evolution is coming from, you're going to be lost. So one of the ways that I perceive, a good way to stay on top of that is all right, how about I get involved with a multicultural journal in our field in group, which at the time were really what would I was really geared and focused on just for tenure. So I said if I can get the opportunity to see what's going on, not only just the trends, but also how's this process going in terms of getting manuscripts, I know what I'm looking for. But what are the editors looking for?
And obviously yes, you can go to ACA and [Stasis 00:21:51] and ASIS and talk to editors. But sometimes they're in their professional mode, but when they're giving that feedback and you see what they're putting forth you're like, okay, this is what the journal is looking for. So I took that as an opportunity, I can give back to the profession, but I also took it as if I can use the terminology here, burning the candle at both ends, serving my field, yes. But I'm also learning from this. My writing enhances because I'm seeing what other people are doing, things that makes sense to me and it was like, okay, great, great, great. So the natural trajectory at least for me was to look at okay, you've been an editorial board member now for about six years, associate editor now. You're getting more understanding.
That was a switch for me as well because there's a power differential, which I struggled with for a while because now I'm the one that's giving the recommendations, to either decline it or accept it. And before as a editorial board member, I'm just reviewing it. I didn't really put any... I mean you give your recommendations, but now you really have the power-
You hold somebody else's life in your hands.
Yes, that's kind how it feels. I know it's probably not that crucial, but for me as writing and then you're trying to get tenure, I'm always thinking who wrote this? Is it somebody who's trying to get tenure? Is the doctoral student trying to get a job?
That's a very real struggle when you're doing that because you don't want to... You want the best from everyone. But you come across an article that's maybe not written that well and whatever have you, you do go through something saying well, I feel bad putting this, but this person won't grow unless I do it.
True, true. Very good point.
And you hope that's how they take it, that they accept it in that manner. But on the back end of that, and I don't know that I've ever struggled with this in my capacity being a journal manuscript reviewer. I don't think that I ever held onto well, this person might not get tenure because I said this. Because I think that you can get caught up in that. And if you get caught up in that, then you might not be doing a good service to that person by not telling them what they need to know about how you are reading their work.
Yeah. As an editorial board member, that really... Because my whole idea is I give you everything that I believe about this manuscript, but it's up to you all to make the decisions. Now when I'm the associate editor, now I'm no longer... I mean now I'm you all, I'm the one who's making the decisions. So it's just like, so that did bother me especially when as associate editor, editor, you know who the people are because as a reviewer, you don't. But as the editor you do and I'm like oh, my goodness, I know these people. And that's when I started having that existential crisis like oh crap, I know this person. Oh man, it was hard. So I guess-
Well, I hope I don't ever put a piece in front of you then, because I know you'll come at me. So when your life has evolved into now you being a co-chair on the Black Male Experience Task Force that I put forth, and one of the reasons why you're here to talk today. What are some of your hopes and goals for this task force?
That's another million dollar question here, I'm glad that you asked that. One of the hopes is that we bring attention to what's going on. One of the things about being a counselor is, and I had this discussion with somebody recently, we were talking about multiculturalism or just diversity or being culturally competent. And this individual said well, being ethically sound encompasses being culturally competent. And I totally disagreed, and the reason being is that you can be ethically sound but still be culturally... Not culturally competent because you're missing stuff, because you think you're ethically sound. You think by... Well, but yes, I understand culture, I respect that. But there's a gap. There's a gap with the actual application. There's a theoretical aspect in the application. So part of my hopes for this task force is to bring attention to this matter and say you know something, you're the president of ACA, how long has it been? It's been double digit years and I don't know exact the time, but I think it's been upwards to 18 to 20 years or something around that, from the last black male who was president.
It's 22, almost 23 years.
Okay. I knew it was somewhere up, but I didn't want to put a number and be incorrect, but-
I might be incorrect, but I know it was over 20.
Okay. Well, that's a problem. That's a problem. And as being a black person, we know just the impediments and obstacles that are there. But sometimes we tend to gloss over this intersectionality. And even though as a male we look at it as well, males have preference in this society, and you're absolutely correct. But then when we add the intersectionality of well, black male, and then we look historically and just the figure, the image of a black male, that brings with it connotations, some positive obviously, and some negative. And without us really looking at how it's impacting, we're glossing over and not bridging those gaps. So I hope just bringing attention to it is one of the first things, and then taking action on that, bridging those gaps,
Have you all come up with some of your game plan for this task force during this particular year?
Yes, yes. We've been hard at work, we had meetings on top of meetings to discuss well, what direction do we want, who we want brought in on this. And we have some really creative, creative thinkers and shakers and movers in the field of counseling that really want... I mean that really just mirror what I stated about, how to bring attention to this and make sure that we're just not going around in a circle, or as I like to say running around in a rat maze, like there's really no way out, we're just making a lot of noise, but in order to get out of that maze, you got to break the rules. So that's who I believe that we have on these subcommittees, rule breakers but in a good way. There's some... If the rules are made but they're not benefiting, who says you can't break them? As long as it's not illegal, unethical. And what I mean by rule breaking is that who says we have to go with what is the status quo of how we teach, of how we-
Challenging. So challenging how the status quo has set up how you navigate this world, or how we navigate this life, especially in counseling. Because there's so much talk about how the counseling narrative or theories especially, do not necessarily take into consideration various intersectionalities. It is really based on maybe one male perspective or a white ethnocentric perspective.
Yes. Yes, that's a very, very good point.
So we are coming up on our breaking point to go to the next half of our conversation. So I wanted to see if there was any last minute words you want to say before we take our break.
No, I just really appreciate just the work that you're doing, and just bringing... I've told you before, leading from the front. And sometimes that's very difficult because you lead from the front, you're the first one to get hit. So definitely-
It's going to be a hit, huh?
I definitely appreciate you leading from the front taking up those hits, and allowing people like myself the opportunity to just go further.
Nice, nice. Well, this is The Voice of Counseling, and we're talking with Dr. Isaac Burt today. And we'll be back in a very short moment.
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Welcome back to The Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler, and we are here today with Dr. Isaac Burt. And in our conversation we talked a lot about his life journey, moving towards the great counselor educator that he is today. Now I want to just talk a little bit about some of his work, what he's been doing. So Isaac, looking at the future and looking at what you're doing in terms of the types of I guess research interests that you have, tell me about your current work and what you are doing in terms of looking at racism and discrimination and its impact. Right? And not only that but how it really impacts feelings and behaviors. And with that, I think you're connecting that to the effects of the brain.
Yeah. Like I said, that's another million dollar question. You are bank, you'll be $3 million richer now. So-
Keep on bringing me the change, man. Bring me the coins.
Everybody needs a little bit of money, right?
Well, once again connecting this to something that we previously talked about, my own experience with encountering racism, discrimination, I tend to analyze things, sometimes overanalyze. But one of the things that came to me was, what is it doing to me? I understand on an emotional level where you might not trust people, and I know just historically black men specifically when it came to being diagnosed with being paranoid, we sometimes rank high on that. So I wondered okay, great, I understand that. But what is it doing to my brain?
[inaudible 00:32:48] your brain.
I really wondered. So I started researching that, more like literature reviews and seeing what do neurologists, neuroscientists, behavioral neuroscientists, is there any research on that. And there is some, it's a growing piece. Then it started looking at the campus, [inaudible 00:33:11] all these brain structures that I kind of knew about, but remembered back in my 201 psychology course. I really hadn't touched upon it in a while. So with my research I realized that you can do... Racism and discrimination is a long term issue that can impact the brain and the functioning, sleep cycles, all these different things. But with that negative as they put out there, a lot of the research talked about how not necessarily these things can be reversed, but the brain has plasticity. So there's ways that people can go forward even while being impacted or being impacted by this to turn the clock, for lack of a better phrase. So with COVID hitting, I took this as an opportunity. I remember, I recall speaking to my wife and saying okay, this is going to be a course redirection for me.
Because you couldn't go out, we were not quarantined, but social distancing. So I said, "This is an opportunity for me to take a step back, see what's working, what's not, to really delve a little bit deeper into this research about the brain and see if I can even experiment on myself," not taking test tubes or anything of that nature, I'm not Frankenstein, but just looking at it as what you're reading, see if you can implement on your own. And then when we had the racial uprising, George Floyd, Black Lives Matter, Black and the Ivory, I mean that just reinforced it even more.
Something you said resonated with me early in this part of the conversation. You said something to the effect of, that the black male is experiencing these different things and having to deal with them, and then seen as being okay, or not necessarily being seen as being okay, or it's diagnosed differently. You got all these things being thrown at you and you're responding or reacting to it, and then you're being given this diagnosis of being whatever. Really the truth of the matter is, is maybe there's not something that's going on with you, but your immediate or human nature response is to come back at it this way. Then you're labeled this and as a deviant or whatever have you, and that takes center stage. Is that your thought on that?
Yes. You've hit the nail right on the head with the hammer. That's part, and hopefully this'll make sense. But what you just spoke about goes back to that status quo like well, if you act this way you get diagnosed way because, well, that's just how it's been. But it doesn't take into account the actual nature of what that individual is encountering in their environment, which led me to... I'm still a counselor at heart, but I do think we tend to limit ourselves at times by saying, I'm just a counselor. There's nothing wrong with adding in a neurobiological, let's say neuroscience, because I don't only get too technical. There are maybe some neuroscientists out there that are like whoa, neurobiology is different. But just looking at neuroscience concepts which is neuro counseling, which is applying those concepts to our life. If you look at any type of animal, which we're mammals, so we technically we're animals. But if you expose them to something, the natural reaction is to necessarily be fearful but wary, and to avoid.
But as humans since we have higher analytical thinking, if we react in a way that's oh well, I don't want to do that, oh well, that's deviant. Something's wrong with that because you should be able to get over that, but you haven't experienced that. So we take that element out, and I'm trying to reiterate that we're human, we have analytical thinking, but there's also a neurological and biological aspect that we tend to ignore.
Well, you just said something that actually also resonated with me. A person who doesn't understand someone's experience, and that again goes back to the cultural competency that you talked about earlier. If a person doesn't understand your experience and then tells you to do differently than what is I guess expected of you to do, or the human nature side of how you respond, if you get slapped in the face, you're going to feel the slap and you're going to respond in kind, right? So for somebody who hasn't been slapped in the face to tell you how to respond to that is in a sense disingenuous, right? So if you are a counselor who hasn't had the black male experience, and a black male comes to you and tells you what they just went through and you give them your perspective on what they should do, then you may not be helping. That's the harm that you bring to the situation of working with somebody who you have no cultural understanding of. That make sense?
Yeah. I think that goes back to when we spoke about what would be my hopes for this task force, it is to bridge that gap because so many counselors think that's not a gap that needs bridging because it's already been bridged. It's already like well, obviously yes, I took my multicultural class, I teach multiculturalism or I incorporate it in my class. But there's that idea of you haven't been slapped yet. So you can theorize about being slapped, but until you actually get slapped you're like, wow, that hurt.
That's the privilege, right? The privilege of walking through life without being slapped is a privilege. So the people who've been getting slapped are like wait a minute, hold up, no, that's not how we doing this, that's not how we doing this. So that makes so much sense. And what's really interesting, that's simplistic. Right? We just made that very simplistic, but it's a really true statement in the lives of people who are marginalized or oppressed whose lives are not seen as valuable for people who are living a life of privilege.
Yeah, yeah. And that goes to try to bring it all together, that is what led me to looking at biological aspects. Because it goes against the status quo of stating well, you shouldn't feel this way. Well, if you look at what it's doing to the brain, it really is. There's research, and how do we break the status quo by showing new evidence by saying this could be alternative to this status quo that's been here all these years, just because somebody said so 40 years ago, which may not be appropriate now in 2021. And if I can add one thing to this, during the racial uprising there was an interview of a young lady, and I don't know what state she was in. But she was I think 18, 19 years old. So she's young enough technically, because I have friends who have children older than 18 and 19 years old. She said, "Our parents told us that... Well, our grandparents told our parents that education was the key, that you work, you work, you work, you work and that you eventually get it." And-
Basically yes, part of the John Henry-ism type of impact, which I am a product of that generation because I'm old enough to be that young woman's father. She said, "We don't want to wait 20 or 30 years like our parents did. We want it now. We want it to be able to have-
... Yes. Well, even if it's not immediate gratification, the point that I took from that was we were led, and I'm thinking about my generation and a lot of my friends. We all have degrees, and we still struggle with the same things that kids today are struggling with. But we're told once you get that education, things change for you. And they do change for you, but there's another level of it. So what I took from this young lady stating was, break the status quo. We don't want to wait 30 years from now telling our children the same thing that our parents said that their parents said. We want change now. And how are we going to do it? Well, we've got to confront this and not just oh, well let's give it 10 more years. So that to me led me into this, and thinking about how can we now just challenge this status quo and have new methods that buffer against these strategies that potentially are not working.
And it's going to be uncomfortable, but it's something that's necessary to happen. And that's it, right? So we can look at technology and say wow, look how far we've come. We've come from having house phones to having cell phones, to having cell phones that have computers in them, and all these other things. But yet we are still stuck in this mire of how we allow individuals to find their promise, or to find their success. Right? Because we think that it has to be a certain kind of a way. So we evolved in technology in many ways, but we haven't evolved in persons, in personhood, of how we can help people to find or be their better selves, so to speak. Right?
I agree, I agree. My wife is a counselor, and we were having a discussion. We have these counselor-esque discussions every now and then. I'm sure you can relate to that, Dr. Butler. But we were talking about one of her friends that was taking counseling, and she said she left counseling because the counselor just was going in one direction. And you could tell by what her friend was saying that it was... And nothing wrong with CBT or anything of that nature, but it was so go focused, and it may have been insurance purposes, she may have only had six sessions, I don't know about that. But it was very just focused on an issue that she thought the client had.
And I said, "Well, what if she had done a different approach?" Does counseling itself need to evolve in order to meet the needs of people who do have a concern about institutions? And that can be for black, Latino, Asian, or even lower socioeconomic. I think there's something in there like a cross between counseling, consultation and coaching that I think counseling can lead the evolution on. So not to get too far off on a tangent, but-
No, you're not. You're making sense.
But I do think that's what part of these for this task force is that we're trying to push. Not give a new method of counseling, but counseling field, take a look at this.
So let me pull back on that and ask you a question, though. So you brought up CBT, and that made me think that is it time, and this is you and you can answer however you want. Is it time for us to either not scrap the theories that are happening right now, but is it time for us to start to develop new theories? We use CBT, we use person-centered, we use all these other types of theories that have been around for a century now. And we use these, and we adapt them. It wasn't made for certain people, but it was adapted for certain people as time moves forward, that's how we evolved. Is it possible that we need to... And we tried critical race theory or I'm saying it wrong, not critical race theory, God, what is it? Relational culture-
Yeah. So we come up with new ways, but they haven't taken off with the same type of I guess luster, as these other very early on theories of counseling have come along. So is it time in your eyes for us to really sit down at the table and actually develop a more culturally sound counseling theory?
Okay. Well, I'm going to add another million dollars to your bank here, because that was another million dollar question. I agree that it is time. This brings us back to when I was speaking about my trajectory now looking at the social political or political social atmosphere, because the thing with those historically utilized theories is that they're part of the system. And so for insurance purposes if you want to get reimbursed, I mean look, you have to use CBT. I mean it's empirically supported because it's been around the longest. So while I agree with you wholeheartedly, there needs to be a change in what we utilize. The issue comes from the political, the systemic aspects of it because if I try to change it here, but here it's not being accepted, and people who need to be reimbursed or they're working at an institution where they're going to fall back on that, so that's why I say the status quo needs to be challenged. That's why my trajectory has gone more from just solely race and gender to a more social political aspect, because that's what needs to be challenged.
Yeah. Yeah, and I hear that. I think I love you for saying that perspective, because that does throw another monkey in a wrench, so to speak. But it does beg the question, do we need to re-conceptualize how we come at counseling? Because we're teaching people something that was taught to people a hundred years ago.
So then we're expecting them to be able to take something that wasn't made for the twist and the turns, and add twists and turns.
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I had a student recently that I had a meeting with after the class, and it was the multicultural part of the class. She was a young black woman and she has some very... She reminded me of me, kind of.
I know. So you can imagine, but I think a little bit different. But she had a very good point about being frustrated with the status quo, about answering in a certain way, about utilizing theories, very really what you stated that wasn't meant, but just making it work and then saying well, you got to use it. And I agree with her. I agree. I said, "We should continuously challenge status quo and ask questions and to get the answers. Some answers may be legitimate and some answers may not be. And those answers that are not legitimate, well then we do need to challenge that, which does take a lot of energy and time. But you're right. In the long term, in the long run, it's what's the most appropriate direction to take."
Listen, we're coming to the close of our counseling hour. I want to give you the opportunity to share your thoughts about what you want to see moving forward, what you want to give to our viewing public with regards to the Black Male Experience Task Force, or just how you want to see the world evolve. So take it away. What's some of your hopes, your dreams for our future?
Yeah. I really... There was, and it was actually it involves you, it involves you and Dr. Andrew Daire. You all put together a webinar and I'm mentioning I think it was 2020, but it really dealt with anti-racist pedagogy. I had both you all as professors at UCF, and I admire this. I'm looking at these men now and looking at what they're doing, they're challenging that status quo and forcing the counseling field, or just education as a whole, to sit here and say are what we doing, is it right? Have we been indoctrinated into a system that we are now just promulgating? If we are, then can we take a step... It's almost like being in the matrix. Can we take a step out of the matrix and reevaluate this, and come at it from a different perspective? So that's my hope that this task force can challenge that, can get people to start thinking and perhaps considering alternatives that can be a buffer, and can really push counseling into this multicultural culturally competent profession that we profess to be.
Nice. I've heard you use the reference to the matrix before, and I don't think ever so much more eloquent than today-
... In terms of how we need to step outside of it and see it from a different perspective and recognize that. So thank you, Dr. Isaac Burt, for being a phenomenal guest today. This has been The Voice of Counseling, and we are really proud of your take on the world, and what you have provided and given to the world. So thank you for being a counselor, being a counselor educator-
... And being a change maker as we move forward. So again, thank you all for listening in. This is The Voice of Counseling. Enjoy the rest of your day.
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