by
Joseph Peters
| Feb 03, 2022
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is The Black Male Experience part one and features Dr. Michael Brooks.
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association, I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. And joining us today is Dr. Michael Brooks. Michael Brooks is a counselor educator, a full professor at North Carolina A&T State University. He is a member of the doctoral faculty there in rehabilitation counseling. Dr. Brooks has served nationally on televised panels to offer his opinion regarding HIV and substance abuse. He has an extensive publication record in several counseling flagship journals, as well as publications in multicultural education and student affairs. Dr. Brooks has an edited textbook, Black Male Success, and has authored several book chapters. He has been the president of the Association for Multicultural Counseling and development and also the president of the Alabama Association for Counselor Education and Supervision. He serves as a faculty advisor for doctoral students in education and also in human... Actually, I'm saying that wrong, and let me start all over again. He serves as faculty advisor for the Doctoral Student Association in the Human Development and Services Department. So with that, let me bring in Dr. Michael Brooks. How are you doing today, man?
Fantastic. And thank you for the invitation to dialogue with you. It's always good to talk counseling with you, my friend, President Butler.
Yes, yes, yes. We've had many a conversation. And one of the things that I knew coming into this presidency was that I wanted you to be a strong part of the conversation. And with that, you are a co-chair for the Black Male Experience Task Force, and so what has that experience been like? And tell me a little bit about what you got going on right now.
So the experience, it's ebbed and flowed with intensities. It's been good to galvanize those who are concerned about black men in counseling under one focus. It's been tough though in some ways only because there's a looming sadness that we only have the time of your presidency to take advantage of this light. So how do you maximize the opportunity, make it important and impactful, and not be like a Debbie Downer, but understand that this could come to somewhat of a slowdown? I'm not going to say a halt, but a slowdown just because the next person in office may not have this type of emphasis. So if I'm being truly honest, that's my ongoing sentiment. I'm constantly reminding the other co-chairs, "Hey, we only have a year. We only have a year." A year in this particular light. Again, I must specify that the work that we do will go on regardless of who is president of any organization. But this is a luxor of light, if you will, to get us moving.
We can't squander the time, we can't let it fall by the wayside without getting at least the jumpstart on it so that it can flourish in the future. I hear you. And I appreciate that because I think that's a part of the vulnerability of it all and that's also a part of bringing voice to what the situation is. You're just saying that just now, just adds to the point that there needs to be people at the table who will champion and take up the mantle of this concern, to make sure that it stays in the forefront. So I hear you when you say that there's that ebb and flow and there's also that piece of the puzzle where it might fall by the wayside. So thank you for that.
For the sake of taking up the group that's on what I call critical care or the group that's on life support. And one of the things that we do is we tend to yank momentum. Well, you're doing something for this group, what about that group? And you're doing something for that group, what about the third group? And we end up diluting the intentionality of the initial focus. There's a particular population, black men, that are on life support. We are, in many ways, thriving in spite of some serious circumstances. I don't want to say we're barely surviving, I'm trying to change narratives. But we're thriving in spite of some very dire situations. So someone needs to have the wherewithal to always recognize that some groups may need more attention than others. I use this analogy, you live in a subdivision, I live in a subdivision. If a house catches on fire, the fire department goes and sprays the water on the house that's ablaze. The fire department doesn't come put water on all the houses in the subdivision. Some groups need more attention than others.
So with that, what are some of the biggest threats you think to black males today?
Just what I brought up, the absent mindedness, the over looking, sometimes it's even our own inability to recognize that some groups just need attention and that's not going to rob other groups of attention.
I think a lot of times people think that we want to be babied, and that's not what black males want. They want to be seen and heard and they want their humanness to be on the main stage as valid and relevant. So a lot of times we get swept under the rug as being an afterthought.
And a lot of times I think we are assumed that because we're also men that we'll be okay. We'll just-
Well, in a real sense, we've been able to show resilience in being okay, but we haven't been okay.
I think we fake the funk in a very serious way. I think we show improve in a superficial way. Where when you peel back the onion layers, it's no, this is not okay. I think we've managed to outwardly survive or give the appearance of survival when it's really a hollow shell.
Dr. Michael, from your perspective, how do we showcase that vulnerability without losing ourselves?
I think that's a great question. I think counseling has to recognize that the one size fits all method just doesn't work. There are roughly 13 theories that are taught in the theories class. Each of the theories has relatively associated techniques that accompany them. None of those 13 theories in the history of counseling address Afrocentric phenomenon and ideologies, or at least none of them in the books that I've used as. So I have to bring in outside textbooks to talk about these things. In that, none of the techniques address how to engage with men of color, let alone oppressed people or people who are survivors of the enslave. More so none of these techniques overall, there may be some nuances, but none of them generally speak to men who suffer under these same living conditions. And on top of that are additionally victimized, marginalized, and traumatized.
So we are a very specific group and we desire some aspect of mainstream counseling that's going to address these specificities. When Hurricane Katrina came in 2005, CACREP decided that we would have a better, stronger systemic emphasis on trauma. Now, trauma became a part of the CACREP standards. Black men have been getting shot by the police since God knows when, since the slave patrol, yet there is no aspect of counseling that speaks to traumatized people, traumatized black people, descendants of the enslaved. So I think as you slowly funnel down, you'll hit some of these areas. But there needs to be an approach as to how to engage them in counseling, and we don't do that.
You said that just now, it made me think. So you talked about Katrina and you talked about sometimes that even being still a bandaid. Because even in that, working with Katrina, there are intersectionality of people, black males being one of them, that's not being serviced, yet you're still putting this bandaid on the Katrina aspect of it all.
But I brought up the natural disaster and Katrina in particular because it showed that counseling as a profession could have a response.
Counseling is very capable of responding to the needs of people. We could go down the list. If you don't like black males, have a response to children who are traumatized by police shootings. You would be better positioned if you would respond to the needs of the populace to deal with black males. Some counselors are just gifted and able to make those adaptations. So we are able to make it work. But across the board, as a profession, we just haven't done it publicly. We haven't put down a stake and said, we're going to do this.
Let me ask you a question. You brought up the 13 theories that we utilize.
Roughly. And they're centuries old, some of them in regards to that. Are we shooting ourselves in the foot to think that that's the only way to counsel? And is there a need for a more current theory of choice that counselors can gravitate towards, that will support what you're talking about, in terms of working with different clientele?
I'm sure there are ways to make the current structure work. I'm sure if CACREP just said, "Look, you need a black male, you need to address counseling." I'll be selfish. "You need to speak to how you will address black males in counseling. And here are the standards, so we need to see your evidence of doing that." And people will find a way to make these 13 theories work. I think as people of color, I think as BOIPOC, we have long acculturated ourselves to the traditional ideologies of counseling. I think there is a growing uneasiness to acknowledge the western ways of thinking. And that probably would hit what you're saying, are we shooting ourselves in the foot? I think we shoot ourselves in the foot by limiting ourselves to just what I call the 13, I know I'm being facetious when I say that. And I think some of the textbooks ram all the other more modern, progressive theories in the last chapter.
So you've said something that I'm curious about, you said CACREP, and you used them as the example. What do you see as the role of ACA in that? Because there's got to be a focus on what the counseling profession is. In some regards, I see CACREP and other accrediting sources as the group that comes in and ensures that these things are happening. But does ACA have any ownership in ensuring that this is what counselors should be doing in controlling the narrative, so to speak, on what it is that the counseling profession does?
Yes, ACA does have ownership. ACA is the grandparent organization to counseling. So ACA can be the bridge between what's traditional and what is. So ACA can take on that role, ACA should take on that role. I think ACA has never been comfortable being controversial and being provocative. And I think counselors to a certain degree are somewhat uneasy about being those things. So ACA in some ways reflects who its members are. So if 15% or 10% of its membership are like, "Hey, we have issues." I think ACA will say, "Well, we'll acknowledge it." But the majority of us may not feel that way.
So Mike, what suggestions would you have for those counselors who have a desire to work with black males?
What I want to say is one, I think they need to be somewhat... There needs to be an understanding that working with black males may not be a popular topic, it may not be one that's going to have a lot of flash. So there needs to be some acknowledgement to the effort to go places where people aren't necessarily going to gather. But to understand that getting into the work of the margins is sometimes just as important as working in the more popular area. So I want to just say that up front. The suggestions though would be to embrace all forms of masculinity, to not limit yourself to what one believes of black male is or could or should be. I think that's how we got here, is by making broad statements and broad assumptions about black males.
Then I think it's almost as simple as the multicultural competencies and social justice standards. Investigate your attitudes, beliefs, behaviors, and how these things manifest themselves from a point of privilege or from a point of opportunity and make adjustments. What attitudes do you have about black men? What do you do to address those attitudes as a counselor? And then how do you infuse those into your counseling? What do you know about black men or about black culture? How do you demonstrate this outside of your counseling life? And then again, how does that knowledge infiltrate and play a place in your counseling practice? How much practice do you give to black men in all of our variety and differences?
Can you tease that out a little bit because I one of the things, when you first said that, different intersectionality within the black male, what do people need to be looking out for? Can you give a sense of that definition of what a black male is? Because I think a lot of times we do want to dimensionalize a black male. So what are the nuances of the black male from your perspective?
Everything from Virgil Abloh, may he rest in peace, to Dennis Rodman, to Barack Obama, to the guy that cuts my hair. I just think you need to remove the limits for what a black man can or cannot be.
So just let me ask you this, with the name that you just rattled off just now, people will stereotype the black male just from those names there, that's dangerous. How do you separate and or move away from that and say, yes, I want you to be like a Barack Obama, like a Virgil, I want you to be you like these individuals, but understand that they were complicated beings.
But that's why I also mentioned the barbershop guy and that's why I also... And I tried to get away because I know those are famous people, but Virgil's in fashion. And you don't associate black men necessarily with fashion, unless you know about the history of fashion, which I don't think a lot of people do. Barack Obama's biracial but he identifies as a black man. So that makes him very complex and special at the same time. So I see your point, that there are complexities even within the popular black man, but we're not just all that.
So what comes with those guys, in particular the Virgil and Bario, so to speak, is the assumption that we can all be that. But I don't know if we all want to be that, and so we shouldn't be counseled as that. I'm just as black as Alan Iverson. It doesn't mean I want to be him and I don't think he wants to be me. So we shouldn't be treated necessarily as if we can be one another, we should be allowed to define who we are we should be treated because we are defining who we are and accepted as such.
Let me ask you a question, do you see men from other internationalities being able to find themselves in that same narrative or are we seeing black males being isolated in that same narrative?
I think in some ways men can be caught up in that same box. Tavis Smiley years ago one said though, "The difference is when white America catches a cold, black America gets pneumonia." So we don't have the same bounce back, if you will.
They're a typical type situation.
The impact or the levels to which we could suffer are a lot more extreme by being in this isolated place.
I hear you. So how did that play out? So if you were to do a case scenario of a white male and a black male, what typically ends up happening in those privileged or marginalized spaces for either?
It starts at the beginning, it starts in the classroom. There are conversations that somebody can have and they can see themselves being included in the conversation and the other person would say, "I have no place in this. I'm constantly having to be bilingual in some ways."
The invisible man, was it Ellison?
I have to constantly just, I'm in the room, but you're not talking about me, you're not talking about anything that I relate to. I get what you're saying because I see it, I may drive by it.
So can you break that down a little bit more because I hear it all the time. I don't know that people understand exactly what you just said just now. How do you break that down? I'm in the room, you don't see me, and you don't bring me into the space, how do you help people understand what that even feels like?
So I'm wearing a shirt that says ATLiens, this is outcast's second album. And came out in 1996, probably was one of their pinnacle albums. If a professor even wants to broach the topic of hip hop, typically it might be something of, it's a bridgeable genre to young people. And it's exciting and it's moving and it's associated with partying. Whereas, and I may be a little broad in my statement, the majority of black men, at least my age, I'll say it like that, will say hip-hop is so much more than that, hip-hop is my mouthpiece, hip-hop is my lifeline, hip-hop is the way in which I have survived these horrible circumstances and made it and gotten my voice out.
When did you fall up with hip-hop?
Right, when did you fall up with hip-hop? I could tell you exactly when I fell a love with hip-hop.
So hip-hop is my coded language, hip-hop is so much more,. So that's an example of someone bringing up the topic and I really relate and embellish. But you're not going to hear that, you're not-
But you can't build rapport there because if I talk to you about hip-hop and I have no clue where your experience is or where you're coming from, and I try to connect with you there and I'm so way off, here you're talking about something that's coming from ATLiens and I'm talking about hip-hop to the hip, to the hip, to hip hip-hop because I can't connect with you in that space where you have those life experiences based on your experience with hip-hop.
It's one thing to not connect, it's another thing to not have the desire to connect, it's a third thing to think you connect when you have no idea.
Your connection isn't even touching.
Look at you, I love that, I love that. That's not even touching.
That's not even what [inaudible 00:26:01] kinesthesias or whatever that thing, that little...
If you have a positive and a negative strong enough, they [inaudible 00:26:08] each other.
Actually magnets opposite of each other can't connect.
Wow, wow, you said more than the word right there. So from the black male experience, you've just acknowledged how multifaceted it is because even in that realm, you have black males who don't know anything about hip-hop.
They may not know anything about hip-hop, they relate to it.
You know what I mean, it's from a different perspective, I'm trying to say. Everybody has a different way of coming to it.
That's a developmental issue because hip-hop is African. The beats that we use, the sampling, everything. If you study music, you know that every genre of music was created by black folks, at least in America, I'll say that. In America, every genre of music was created by black people, gospel, rock and roll, jazz, blues, R&B, rap. And the history shows it.
You do you combat a person who tells you no, that's not true.
Read. The slaves brought spirituals over from Africa, which is the basis of gospel music. And then in the Mississippi Delta, blues musical was created because it evolved from spiritual. And it traveled down the Mississippi to New Orleans to Armstrong Park, which is the birthplace of jazz. Chuck Barry took melodies from blues and converted them to rock and roll, he and Ray Charles together. Hip-hop was created on Sedgwick Street in Queens, in the basement of the YMCA, where people took disco records and found the break beats and made them in the song. So that's how I know.
And I could just tell you that I hear a lot of people talking about read and being discerning in your reading because there's a lot of literature out there, there's a lot of stuff that is out there. Some of it good, some of it bad, fiction and non-fiction, about the black experience. But when you read, you need to be discerning of what it is that you're taking in and understanding that there's truth, there is actual facts behind those statements that you just made about the music genre in and of itself.
I tell my students, you need to research who you're reading. People need to have some type of ombudsman or a process to where they are given permission to speak. Or they need to demonstrate why they are able to speak on these topics. So I would say you need to vet who you allow into your brain.
That's a perfect place for us to maybe take a segue and take a break. And then that was deep, man. That was deep. Who you let enter into your brain space.
Well, yeah. Just because the Flagship Journal says, hey we published this document. I'm like, "Whoa, who is this dude? Who are you? Who did you study under? Who's in your references? Just who are you influencing so I can allow you to influence me?"
And again, who are you influenced by so that I can allow you to even come into my space? Because that's right because you can bring in a bunch of nonsense and then still be lost. A perfect place to stop right now. And so thank you, Mike. We're going to come back to this after the break. This is The Voice of Counseling and I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and we're here with Dr. Michael Brooks. And we will be back with you shortly.
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Welcome back to The Voice of Counseling, this is Dr. S. Kent Butler and we're here with Dr. Michael Brooks, who is at North Carolina A&T State University. He has been dropping not only beats, but the mic. So many different things that we've been talking about today. And I want to segue into us talking about black men in regards to the media. So we talked about the hip hop piece of the black male experience. Can you talk about what you feel about the way young black men and boys are portrayed in the media?
Well, years ago, Jesse Jackson said that you don't see any positive black images on primetime TV from the hours of, like he said, from 5:00 to 9:00 or 5:00 to 11:00, something to that effect. So that begs the question, what images do you see?
Then at 11 o'clock you see the news with the bad images.
Right, or a continuance of the bad images. So that means you see us in roles that probably are very limiting, janitors, help, criminals.
Pimps, yeah all those things. So if my exposure to black people, let alone black males, is limited, then I'm going to base my opinions and assumptions on what I see on TV. So when you see someone like Kent Butler walking in your life, you're like, "Whoa, whoa, what's this? This is different." So you may think either Kent's the exception or we made a mistake or something. Because these images perpetuate for years.
So in that perpetuation, are black males in your experience seen as harsh and hard and unapproachable. What is the purpose of having the black male in all those negative sequences in media if not to make people fearful of them?
So you asked about the purpose, the purpose could be multifaceted. The purpose could be to, again perpetuate stereotypes and elevate certain groups while at the same time deescalating other groups. The purpose could just be, this is an extension of my own reality as a producer or as a creator. Othello is think in all the Othello productions, he's only been portrayed as a black man once, and I forgot who played him. But I remember that-
James Earl Jones, wasn't it?
I think it was James Earl. Don't quote me on that.
That point is the same. There's an argument like, no Othello wasn't black, Othello was very black. So we even have-
Or getting to the MOS, if you want to talk about black dynasties. But what ends up happening is the portrayal or lack of positive portrayal or even totality or comprehensive portrayals lead to us having to constantly justify our existence and justify history and rewrite history. Or just correct history, not even rewrite it, just correctly tell it.
You may be told that you are lying.
[crosstalk 00:34:52]. You're skirting the issue or narrative.
Or you're a rebel rouser or you are being difficult or anything. When in fact it's like, no, I'm just telling you that what you're saying isn't accurate. So that's the big picture. And then I think people give up, I think people get tired of just having to always have to correct, acknowledge, ask questions on behalf of a certain group. And like, you know what, I'll just go ahead and be what you want me to be because I'm tired of having to stand up and challenge these big entities.
So the media has taken black males and made them a stereotype and they made them bad seeds, so to speak. And then every once in a while, then we get a character that comes on TV that's a doctor or a lawyer. But it's almost like we see black males in our society. How many PhDs do we have? We talk about this a lot, you and I. How many people who are actually medical doctors or lawyers out there when you look at it from the actual percentage of people who are black in America? And then the media then does that same thing. So we don't have that presence of a male that role model for black youth to look at, to say, yes, that's who I see in my community, that's who I know to be someone that I can become.
If we're fortunate enough, yes, we might be able to. I went to Morehouse College. And thankfully Morehouse, the whole entire Morehouse campus and surrounding areas challenged every stereotype that I could have imagined surrounding black men. So you were able to get a much more broad and comprehensive understanding as to who we are for late adolescences through late adulthood.
And it goes back to what you said earlier about, who are you listening to? Who are they referencing? Who is influencing them so that you can have that perspective as well?
You and I both speak to Michael Purdy, the cooking historical culinary chef out of South Carolina. And there are just so many layers to accurately portraying a group of people and the lack of their portrayal could lead to further oppression or squandering of someone's ability to just want to be empowered.
And also it controls your narrative. And if you have somebody out there in the media that has everybody's attention, that's controlling your narrative, and you not having any ability to put the real story out there. That's why Ava, like I say her name right now.
Huvenne, right and Spike Lees of the world. Remember he had so much trouble trying to bring a narrative forward of what was happening in the black community. And where you don't have people who are forces like that, who can then take and control, that's why it's important to have people at the table. And if you don't have those voices out there who are going to tell the true story, there's more Oprah Winfreys in the world than the one that we see who is the billionaires.
But I think that's part of the issue. We live in a capitalistic society. So we're also victims, if you will, of being money hungry and thinking that's the only way we can impact. I don't know who's going to see this podcast, but this podcast will reach a lot more people than me walking through the streets in my hometown trying to get folks to listen. And this podcast has more staying power. I'm sure there's an archive where if someone went to hear what we discuss, they can pull it and they can watch it and rewatch it. So when you talk about coming to the table, we have to understand the power and impact in the work that we do. Sometimes financial gain may have to take a somewhat of a back seat because-
Work is not about financial gain. Really to try to bring forth understanding of who we are as a black culture, it doesn't come from money, it comes from actually getting in and doing the work. It's putting it in there and making it have sustainable power and lasting power.
And we have to see the bigger picture and understand that. We have to understand that something else needs to drive us.
And often it does. But again, talk about that in regards to black males coming together and understanding that we are behind this target.
Say it differently, talk about what?
Well, all of us are not necessarily coming up at this with the perspective that Michael Brooks just brought today. So there are some people who are coming at it and they'll be oppositional to you in terms of how they see moving forward or they are content being where they are. So how do we bring all those voices to a table to help them see how society has really put black males at a disadvantage? Does that makes sense?
I think so. I have the answer for that though because I didn't come up "this way." I just realized that the issues were bigger than me. I think I had a realization that if I don't speak to issues, and I'm not even sure if I'm doing it the best way, but if I don't at least try to speak to these issues, then I don't think many people will.
That's talking about how you as a black male found your voice and when you were able to take that stage and when you were able to say, "Listen, I do have some influence here."
Yes and no. I didn't have a desire to do scholarship in diversity, so to speak, that that was not my intent. But I realized somewhere along the line that the work needed to be done, and if it didn't get done, more damage could continue.
But I see that also as you had role models in your life, you talk about the Morehouse experience, who showed you that there were other ways, showed you that there was more than just basketball or being a star. Because you talked about that in terms of us gravitating towards money. So there are people who are looking at this limelight thinking that that's the only way that you can go there, when there are so many other ways, multifaceted ways, that black males have been able to find success and be successful with building families and structures that are strong and resilient, so to speak.
Sure. I got into counseling because I was angry with the treatment black people were receiving. I was at a crossroads wondering what am I going to do for the rest of my life? And I just happened to be in this job where I saw counselors and I said, "I don't think these people know what they're doing per se. I don't think they're connecting to these clients." And I said, "I could probably do this or at least be better at it than what I'm seeing." So yeah, I didn't have the Polish or I didn't have the ability to articulate how that would play out 25 years later. But I don't know how you teach someone to be bothered and agitated by the way folks are treated and have an issue with that. I don't know how to teach that.
I hear you, I do. Because it's deep because you're not the savior of us all right.
Well it's personal. I think that's why there's a certain level of seriousness to these topics. Because I have children and I have relatives and I need to trust that the system that we create is going to include them, and that they can receive proper services should they need them. I have friends, so it's personal to me. I think that may be. And when you asked, how do you? I think that's where it may come into play. Do you see what we do as personal? Are you personally concerned about people and how they are treated?
And if you say that that's who you are and that's what you believe in, how do you let these atrocities and things that are happening to those individuals continue to be at the forefront?
Well, so one of the things, and there's a lot of scholars that are out there who are helping to bring forth narratives that are important. And sometimes we in a sense either embrace them or we, I guess the word of today is that we, what do they do when people are taking out the limelight?
Cancel, there you go. I couldn't even remember that word. So there are people who are out there who are doing these things. And we find ways to either support or to be disappointed by. So you brought up Tavis Smiley, people feel a certain way about Cornell West, people feel maybe a certain way about Ivy Tilsley and Eric Michael Dyson, and all those people who are out there spreading what they believe to be how to better improve the life experience of black males. Al Sharpton is one name that comes forward. So we take those individuals and then we either build them up or we villainize them. What's your thoughts on what happens when we have these strong figures who are out there who are, as you said, being influenced by people who they have now taken and become an influencer with their way of life?
Well, let me first respond to cancel culture. Cancel culture I think has morphed into something that's beyond a simple protest. I think you have to give people space to rehabilitate. And sometimes in cancel culture, you remove that. But also people are getting lambasted for things that they did decades ago, some tweet they did years ago, some party they went to and it was a mistake, it was definitely a poor decision, but they are getting railroaded.
They don't get to be [inaudible 00:47:17]. It's almost like the prison system. You send somebody to prison telling them that they're going to be rehabilitated so they can come back out. But yet when they come back out, you continue to use that experience that they went to prison for to keep them from being able to find success.
But I think that hurts people of color or BIPOC folks more than it does others. I remember Dick Cheney was staunchly against same sex marriages until his daughter came out as a lesbian. And then he said, "Well, I think I have a change in heart here." But there was no cancellation of Dick Cheney. So I think we need to find a better way to measure mistakes and errors. I think we need to find a better way to send the message, but also allow space for rehabilitation.
When you say that as a black male, it even has that much more of a resonance with me. Because people who make mistakes and try to atone to them, be able to have the space to find a better way of dealing with whatever it is that they have been dealing with, and we don't give them that.
Get some help, get some help for folks, give them help.
Counseling is one of the great ways that we can get them there.
But I guess Maya Angelou said, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
Believe them the first time.
But I think according to what you're saying right now, there's also got to be a way to help them find another way to show who they are.
People show us who they are and that may not be their ideal self.
Then there's no place for rehabilitation, there's no place for that. Every, not every, but many of the addicts that I know or have treated will clearly say that there is someone living in them that they don't like. But they need to somehow rehabilitate themselves so that they can deal with their internal desire and drive and they need space to do it.
That's good, that's good. I guess goes to show how deep all this is and why it's important to have these difficult dialogues around all of this. Because that's going to help us change our perspective and see the world differently. It doesn't mean that we have to agree, but it does mean that being open to hearing somebody else's narrative might give you a different perspective of how you see them in the world.
I also think if you understand that these issues are complex, then as counselor educators, we can't be about one size fits all, rush job, sprint to the finish training programs. We have to somehow realize that we may need either more depth or more breadth to train our counselors. Which I think feeds the other end, it makes counseling more exclusive.
Wow. Again, mic drops from Mike there, look at that.
Mic drops from Mike, there you go. All right. So we are coming to the end of our conversation today. But I really appreciate you and have always at you. One of the things that I think you and I go back and forth on, we grow on, being able to be real and honest with one another and throw in different perspectives that we may have not been thinking about as we are trying to navigate this life, especially as black council educators. So I thank you, Michael Brooks. Dr. Michael Brooks, full professor, North Carolina A&T State University, you are the man. Again, say the name, how do you say the name of that shirt again?
So you've stared a way that we can move forward understanding men, especially black men, from a different perspective. So this has been The Voice of Counseling. I am Dr. S. Kent Butler. Today we had the phenomenal, Dr. Michael Brooks. And we are out for the day. And so thank you and we'll see you next time.
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