by
Joseph Peters
| Jan 27, 2022
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is Surviving and Thriving in Your Counseling Program and features Dr. Jude T. Austin and Dr. Julius A. Austin.
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. And joining us today, I have Dr. Julius A. Austin and Jude T. Austin II. Dr. Julius Austin is a former collegiate and professional soccer player who owned his MA in clinical mental health counseling from the University of Mary Hardin-Baylor and his PhD in counselor education and supervision from the University of Wyoming. He is currently an assistant professor in marriage and family therapy and counseling studies program at the University of Louisiana at Monroe.
His brother, Dr. Jude Austin, has a PhD in counselor education and supervision. He is an LPC, a LMFT, an NCC and a CCMHC. Alphabet soup. He is currently an assistant professor in the counseling program at the University of Mary Hardin-Baylor and serves as the program's clinical and mental health counseling track coordinator. He also is in a private practice in Temple, Texas.
His research focuses on counselor education pedagogy specifically finding ways for helping counselors and students develop therapeutic presence in session. So today we're going to really be communicating about their book. They have a new book that's out called Surviving and Thriving in the Counseling Program. And so with that, let's bring in these two brothers and see what they got to talk about. Welcome. How you all doing?
So you all are new to the profession and jumped in with both feet and are just doing your thing.
Nobody's stopped us yet. So we just...
Yeah. Well, I don't know why no one's stopped us yet. But we're [crosstalk 00:02:24] front door and looking backwards.
What was the expectation, that somebody would stop you and steal your joy and take you out of your pathway?
Yeah. So let me just backtrack. So I recently made a transition to a full-time faculty member at Grand Canyon University. So I'm over there right now. This is not my first university [crosstalk 00:02:54].
Right. So you guys have an interesting pathway, first of all, into this profession in the first place. You're twins.
And then you're in the same profession.
I don't even know if you're identical or fraternal? Are you identical?
And so you're identical. And then you're in the same profession trying to mess with folk.
Is this what we're doing here? [crosstalk 00:03:24].
I think that's the title of the degree.
The only difference that I can tell the difference between the two of you right now is the fact that one of you all is wearing glasses and one of you all is not.
Yeah. We try to do that to help people.
You try to do that? All right.
Well, I think that's the one of the reasons why we thought we would get kicked out because it's two of us with very similar backgrounds. So we would always look at each other like, "They're not going to let us both into this master's program."
Oh. So were you all in the same program all the time?
Yeah, we were in the same program.
You were in the same master's program and the same doctoral program?
Same master's program, same doctorate program, yeah.
And started working at the same university, Mary Hardin? Where's that?
No. So we got our undergraduate degrees there and our graduate degrees there. So I'm teaching in the same program that I graduated from. We both went there. We played four years of soccer there and some professional soccer in between.
We got our undergrads and then got into the graduate program. And they trained us up. And then we both decided to go and get our PhDs. Even though we were in the same programs, we have different focuses and different research interests and different styles of counseling. So, yeah.
Yeah. Which one of you all is better?
Oh, yeah. That's a hard one.
No. Don't answer that. I'm just messing with you.
If they can't tell, then...
They'll know by the end of this.
They'll know by the end of this. You said you have different pathways. But you came together to write this book. So what was the impetus behind the book?
Oh, man. When we were going through our graduate program, I think one of the things that stood out to us was that we didn't see any writers that looked like us or talked like us or moved like us. And so a lot of our perspective about how to be a counselor was coming from this Euro-centric perspective and from perspectives that didn't even... I mean, they didn't grow up in the same neighborhoods we grew up in. They didn't grow up playing basketball until the streetlights come on. You know what I mean?
So we didn't see ourselves reflected in anything. And so we wanted to write a book that we needed and that we felt like could talk to counselors that acted like us and moved like us, had learned the way we learned and had some of the same backgrounds that we had. And so that was the impetus.
Can you talk about the importance of that, though? Because I think a lot of times, people say that. They hear people say that.
And I'm wondering if you can probably provide some context, because I don't know that I ever heard anyone really be able to give to individuals who are out there saying, "Well, why can't you just use a regular counseling book?" Can you, in your own words, explain what that is? Because it's a thing. It's real, true thing about seeing yourself reflected in something, right?
I was actually thinking about it the other day. I was watching a movie on TV. And the whole movie, throughout it, the characters were all of the same ethnicity. And I had to stop and think.
It's like that's why, when people say, "Representation matters and you have to see yourself," well, you have a whole industry that sometimes doesn't see people. And then you take that outside of the industry, you take that into real life and you don't see yourself reflected. That means something. So can you talk a little bit about, how do we get people to understand why it's important to see yourself represented?
Yeah. I mean, if I can jump in real quick, Jude, at least from my experience, it's reflected not just in the present of who I am now. But when I see myself in literature, in the counseling field, in videos, in any type of media related to the field, I also see reflected in that my parents and my grandparents. And in that reflection, there's this sense of trust and humility and acknowledgement of my existence and my presence within the field that I don't get from... and not saying that these other books aren't helpful, but that I don't get from these other books or sources of literature. So it's very much so deep-rooted in not only who I am personally as a clinician but my identity, especially as a Black man within the field.
Right. [crosstalk 00:08:10] that word "inclusion."
That really is a powerful word when it comes to looking at something like that. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jude.
I was going to add. When we talk about inclusion and acknowledgement and seeing yourself, I think what the struggle... when you go through theories class or you go through ethics or those courses and you don't see yourself reflected in the book is that there's this insidious message. And it's quiet. And it's a whisper-
... that says, "Be less like you and more like us," whoever the "us" is. And you may not necessarily own that message. But you hear it in a way that you act.
And you see it in the way that you relate to other people around you and how it's hard to... you go to counselor training. And then sometimes it's hard to step back into your communities. You know what I mean? So it's just [crosstalk 00:09:04].
Yeah. I can see that if you look at it from the context of someone following in their father's footsteps, so to speak. And you see the person whose father was a doctor or a lawyer. And then they find that they're a doctor or they're a lawyer. Or even in the entertainment community, somebody whose father was an actor. And then they're an actor and all those types of things, that nepotism that comes with that piece, right?
But if you are coming up in communities where you don't see yourself reflected in those types of environments, then you don't think that you can be there.
You don't think you can do it. You think, "That's not for me. That's for you all. That's not for me."
And there's this little, small... and maybe it's not so small, but this idea of, "Oh. I guess I have to be someone else to be accepted or to be a good counselor. I can't be myself."
So let me ask you something, so now that you just said that; "I have to be somebody else to feel accepted." But in those communities, sometimes they do want you to be someone else. They don't want you to be yourself. Can you speak to that?
I feel like that's the tension of going through... that was our personal tension of going through counselor training, not so much in a graduate program but in a doc program, for sure. You feel this tension between who you were raised to be and who you need to be in order to get acceptance and acknowledgement. And I feel like it's that tension that makes a counselor lose confidence. It makes them lose themself. And you can't use yourself as a tool once you start doing that.
So you wrote this book. And it's doing pretty well. So what are you hoping that the reader will get from the book other than having material that may not be covered otherwise? What are some of the things that you're hoping that the counseling program will take and how that will allow others to succeed? And when you talk about that, can you also talk about it from, while it may be written with the mindset of someone who looks like you, it's actually inclusive of all individuals who can see themselves in it as well?
Absolutely, yeah. When we say, "Written from somebody that looks like us," yes, ethnically, racially and culturally. But also, if you're somebody who went to a counseling program and thought that this wasn't for you, that you wouldn't be able to survive or thrive like we did, because we weren't great students. We started in our graduate program thinking, "Any minute now, they're going to realize that we shouldn't be here."
If you're that person, then this book, we feel like, is written for you because our whole goal, what we want, what we want students, our counselors, our counselor educators to get from reading the book is we want them to find their voice. We want them to be confident in their voice. We want them to be anchored into the idea that they can do it, that it's possible.
And also, sometimes you have to survive stuff. And sometimes you can thrive through things. And to be able to differentiate those two things.
Okay, all right. So you got this book. It's written. People are reading it. When's the best time in their career should they be reading it?
Oh. The way that we wrote this book is that we wanted it to be something that you put in your back pocket. And if you're in your first year of your master's program, you pull it out. And you thumb through the pages and say, "All right. This fits for me. This particular portion of my career is where I'm at. But I'm also not in my second or third or fourth year. So that will have to wait until I'm there."
Or you can go forward in it and check that out. So we wanted it to be a touchpoint for people at different stages of their career whether that's first year of their master's program, first year of their doctoral program, their first year out in the real world of psychotherapy. So we wanted it to be at different iterations of their career.
So when you think about it, it's for individuals who can come to find themselves while they're going through the counseling process.
Something that you felt that you didn't have when you were going through your counseling experience.
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's one of the underpinnings or at least the undercurrent of some of the reasons why we wrote this book was to be reflective. So when people read this book, they see us within the book, really us, who we are. They see our voice. They can see and read the jokes that we have in this book, the way that we communicate with each other and also see themselves and their experiences reflected within the text.
Yeah. So do you find this in all your research? I mean, are you writing it from this perspective in all the work that you're doing, not just this book but other pieces of literature that you're putting out there as well?
I said, "I feel found out." I feel like you just cut to the quick of... yeah. That's what we're doing-
... in all of the stuff that we write.
So how might an instructor embrace your work? You got it maybe for students. How might an instructor embrace what you're putting down on paper?
That was another thing that was in the back of our mind when we were writing was that sometimes counselor educators... and I feel like I don't want to call anybody out. But I feel like sometimes they can be-
They can be out of touch with the students' experience in [crosstalk 00:14:49] because they were a student decades ago.
Okay. So [inaudible 00:14:55] that as the impetus of being out of touch. But what does "out of touch" do for the student? Can you talk from that perspective? Because [crosstalk 00:15:08]. But what is it about being out of touch that really is not something that students who are going through right now can embrace?
Yeah. I think it's a parallel process, right?
If counselor educators are out of touch with what it's like to be a student, then it's hard for students to be in touch with their process and their experience of going through the program. And so when we're writing the book and what we want them to embrace is the student experience. There's not a lot of times where counselor educators can sit there and breathe and think, "What are our students going through?"
And so we wanted to have that voice too of, "Hey. This is also the student experience." And so if I'm a counselor educator, I'm reading and thinking, "Man, are some of my students going through this? Am I doing this to some of my... am I making my students feel like this?" We want it to also be a reflective thing for counselor educators.
And not a punitive thing.
When you talk about somebody reflecting upon that, it's about this is what you're leaving. This is the seeds that you're planting in the students that are in your classroom.
Yeah. We hope that whoever reads this book, whether it be a student, whether it be a doctor or a student, a clinician, an educator, that it asks us specific questions about their experience and also creates questions about the students that they are in charge of.
So what's your point of pride for this book, each of you?
That we finished. No. I'm joking. Man, I think my point of pride is that, when I read it, I can laugh at what my brother talks about. He can laugh at what I talk about.
And I feel like I can see him. And I can see myself in the book. I can see my grandpa in the book. I can see my mom and my dad in the book.
That's what I [crosstalk 00:17:06].
I can see stuff, lessons that they told us when we were working, building a fence or something in the country.
Do you see me in the book?
I'm just messing with you.
I know you're just messing with us. But-
Yeah. I don't want to take up too much time with this. But you have no idea the impact that you've sneakily and quietly had over our development as clinicians even watching you from afar at conferences.
You know me and my brother were nervous to go up and talk to you at the ACA Conference? I think it was in 2015 or something like that.
You did a panel with some of the other brothers in the professoriate. And we were blown away. When you talk about representation matters, we thought we were the only African-American counselor educators.
We thought we were the only ones.
We were like, "Okay. So I guess we got to..." and then seeing all of you guys up there was like, "Oh."
It was like seeing stars, you know?
But let me pull back there and just tell you that I had them same feelings about so many people who [crosstalk 00:18:17] I stood upon as well. So I get that. I understand where you're coming from with that.
I think I was just joking in terms of, "Do you see me?" Because I also want to know, would an Asian person see themselves in it? Would a person who considers themselves to be Middle Eastern or whatever see themselves in it as well?
Yeah. I think there are some tenets that's universal in this counselor journey and especially in the counselor training journey where different cultures experience similar things, different things as well. But also, there's a lot of anxiety and the fear. And, "Am I going to mess somebody up?" All of that stuff is in this book.
We wanted to highlight those universal tones throughout our experience that not only we had but also some of our peers did and some of the students that we teach now.
I think I asked this in a way. Let me ask it a little bit differently. When you thought about putting this book out there, what was the thought process? What did you know was missing? How did you know it was missing?
When did you decide to put a proposal together? All those different things that came with putting this book out there in the market, what were those things that made it all come together? Were there people that you were looking at that you said that inspired you? I know that you had done some work working with [inaudible 00:19:45] and some other things.
What were the things that were saying, "Okay. This is the moment. This is the time. This book is necessary. And it's going to be put forward?"
Oh, man. I can jump in, Julius, if you don't mind.
Dialogue, I think dialogue and paying attention to that dialogue, these conversations that me and Julius had because we're getting into counselor education. We graduated in 2016. So we had conversations about, "Man, these are conversations we're having with students. These are the themes of the conversations we're having with students."
And then talking to other peers and colleagues and thinking, "Man, is there a book out there that talks about this and talks about that?" And we couldn't really find one that exactly talked in the way that we wanted. And so it was those situations where you're like, "Well, I guess we have to write it then. I guess it falls upon us to do that."
And you've become rock stars pretty early on in your career.
I don't know about rock stars.
Listen, not very many people can say [inaudible 00:20:49] that they did a keynote for a major conference. So pat yourself on the back a little bit. So what was that experience like to be seen as someone who had a voice and needed to have center stage?
I have this knee-jerk reaction to say I felt honored. And also, it was very humbling but also very scary to have your voice projected at such a volume at a national conference felt like, "Man, I'm 34. Am I supposed to be here?" There was a very real sense of, "Am I worthy of such a stage? Am I worthy to have my voice projected at that level?"
Yeah. I don't think people talk enough about the vulnerability that comes with writing books and doing keynote speeches and just putting yourself out there like that. You're basically saying, "Reject me or accept me." It's like any relationship. There's some inherent fear that comes with that.
So hindsight, looking back, what were your growth moments? What do you see as the things that have come out of it, the positive things that have come out of your experiences thus far?
So there was one thing. And this is pretty personal. But I think it was a pre-pandemic ACA conference.
And we had just come out with the Counselor Self-Care book. And we were in our first book signing panel. And me and my brother, we're looking at each other like, "There's no need to bring a pen because no one's going to come."
And, no. There was this massive line out there. And people were just engaging with us in dialogue and all kinds of stuff. And that was a very surreal moment within our career or at least within mine. But that wasn't it.
It was racing... I mean, Dr. B, racing upstairs to our room and calling our mom and just sharing the experience like, "This is what happened." Now my mom rarely shows emotion. But she was crying on the phone just because there was so much joy that we had. And I think I know my brother probably got in this for the money. But for me, it's for [crosstalk 00:23:34].
Yeah. I'm a call him out. It's time that everyone-
No. That's really funny. But I feel sorry for the first couple people I signed anything for. I didn't know what to write.
And so you try to be inspirational or something like that.
And I'm just like, "What do you say?"
"Thank you for coming. I appreciate your attention."
Right. But then I have to realize... I was thinking back in my mind. I was like, "They're going to look at that and say, 'What the [crosstalk 00:24:02]?"
"His name is not even spelled right. He didn't even spell his name right."
So I really resonate well with you talking about your parents, especially calling your mom and wanting to have her to experience that with you, the joys of what you went through. In the Black community especially, there is something that I don't know that other people might understand to the same level that happens for folks because you could be of two different mindsets: "That's a little overboard," or, "Yeah, I get it. I understand it." Right? And I will liken that to graduation if you've ever gone to a graduation ceremony and you see somebody walk across the stage because it's not just the person that's walking across the stage that's getting that degree-
... in our community for the most part, right? Because it is such a revered thing for someone to have gotten their degree and hopefully don't forget their community once they've gotten their degree, right? And why that resonates so well, which is why you ran upstairs to call your mom. Can you talk a little bit about why family matters?
Oh, my gosh. How much time do we have?
When people describe us writing and counseling and teaching, we hear them describing our dad and our mom and our grandpa and the ways that they taught us to do things. It matters because there's no way we would be able to do what we're doing without them. I pull from them. In situations where I'm most unsure of myself, I pull from family members that impacted me.
Man, it's that healthy attachment. Without that healthy attachment to our parents and our grandparents and ancestors, there would be no way we would feel confident enough to face that vulnerability when writing and when presenting and when doing things that we feel like we have no business doing. It's that secure attachment that allows us to say, "If I fail, I can still go home and eat my dad's red beans and rice and watch the Saints' game and be fine."
It's that. And I think that's why it matters so much. When we accomplish things, it validates their struggles.
Also, failure has a place as well.
I mean, because you can sit in two different ways, right?
You can sit and lull in that and allow it to take you away from your true passion and your destiny. Or you can thrive through it, right? And that's what you talk about with [crosstalk 00:27:04], right?
Exactly, that's exactly it.
That's exactly it. Becoming a counselor is a crucible of self-determination. It will hold you and change you and mold you and put you in positions that you are terrified of.
And you can only survive it or thrive it, right? That's it. And sometimes you got to do one or the other. Sometimes, you're just surviving.
Yeah. So with that, why are the experiences of counselors in training so important?
So the experiences are important because I think reflectively it shifts the way that we train students. So making the experiences of students relevant shapes how we not only train but how we influence students' ability to care for themselves throughout the process of a graduate program. It shifts the different classes and the different modalities that we have students make contact with.
How does that translate to the quality of care for your client?
And that's what I was going to say. And then extending that out into the community, counselor training is so... I feel like I get passionate about it's so important because, man, the counselors have so much power and so much influence in a community. Sometimes, counselors see it as one hour. Or you're just working one client. But that client has cousins and uncles and kids that have relationships with-
Who are all a part of the community.
Before you know it, you're impacting the whole community by the things that you say in 50 minutes. And so to be able to train a counselor not only to know what to do but to respect that power, oh, my gosh, man, it is so important.
Very nice. So maybe we can come back after the break and talk a little bit more about it because there's a concept that you all talked about, the good counselor, right?
And that experience of being the so-called good counselor. So let's try to hit that and talk about that when we come back. But before we go there, one last thing that really resonated with you after the keynote. I mean, other than running upstairs and talking with your mom, how did you come down from that experience? What was that experience like for you two in regards to that?
It was, simply put, one of the highlights of my career because I was able to... there was this connection that you have with other clinicians who are out in the world doing things for clients.
And you could feel that in that space.
You can feel that in that space.
It was very much so present.
I can imagine that those good connections outweigh any possible negative responses you may have gotten from being involved in that.
Yeah. I feel like I didn't really come down for it until a week later. I feel like every day I was like, "Oh. I did that. Oh, my god. Somebody from this country probably listened to that." Or, "Man, I wonder if such and such heard this." You start thinking about the people that... the shoulders you're standing on to be... [inaudible 00:30:50].
So wait. So 10 years from now, when somebody comes up to you and says, "Hey. I saw you..." anyway, well, thank you all. We're going to take a quick break.
And we'll come back with the doctors Austins. This is Dr. S. Kent Butler. This is The Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. We'll be back in a few.
Counselors help positively impact lives by providing support, wellness, treatment. We're working to change lives. We are creating a world where every person has access to the quality, professional counseling and mental health services needed to thrive.
Welcome back to The Voice of Counseling. This is Dr. S. Kent Butler. And I'm here with the doctors Austins. And they are going to be talking today a little bit more about what it is to be a good counselor.
And with that, I'm going to pull you two in. And I'm going to ask you. Talk about the good counselor. And how does that potentially impact the relationship they create with clients?
Yeah. In our graduate program, especially me throughout the training, right around pre-practicum and practicum, there was this ideal of the good counselor, right? And the good counselor for me is they know all the right answers. They never get anything wrong.
They know when to report and when not to report. They can suss out any ethical issues, all of that stuff. And I'm supposed to be that clinician. Or I'm not a good counselor, right?
So I'm always chasing this identify that, quite frankly, doesn't really exist. And it's a very high bar that only results, that leads, in my experience, in failure and failure to reach that potential of what a good counselor is.
Yeah. And I think for counselor educators and for ourselves going through the process was having to figure out that... and this sounds weird saying this out loud. But I'm going to say it. We learn to be good enough counselors, which sounds weird.
But I think we learn to give ourselves grace, not to make mistakes. We're not going out there trying to make mistakes. But I think to give ourselves permission to be imperfect made us better counselors, you know?
To be curious about our experience, the relationship that we have with a client. And also, to be curious about the client's experience within-
Was that how you stepped away from the imposter syndrome?
I think so when we started to realize that there's so many different kinds of counselors and there's so many different ways to do counseling. And I think sometimes even in programs, there's this phantom identity of what it means to be a good counselor that everybody's trying to fit themselves into. And it causes so much stress. And our faculty at the University of Mary Hardin-Baylor helped so much at giving us space to grow, you know?
And so we had to do the same for ourselves.
Nice. So when you found your voice, you found the essence of counseling.
I think so. But let me be specific. And, Jul, you can jump in.
I think we started listening to our voice. It wasn't like it was lost. We just started listening.
And what we heard was the counseling sessions we had with our mom when we didn't make the team, the back porch conversations we had with our grandpa when we went through our first breakups. That's what we started listening like, "Oh, yeah. We've been taught to do this by people-"
Come on now. You can't tell me the Austin brothers have breakups. Come on.
We had them. And that's what grandparents are for and dads that take you on long walks that end nowhere.
Yeah, all right. Let me stop messing with Jude. And so burnout is a really real thing, right?
We have just come off some of the toughest two years of anyone's life ever with this pandemic, not only this pandemic but what was happening in Black and Brown communities as well. What has the pandemic done to advance the counseling education space?
To advance it, I think similar to what we were talking about before, it asked questions that we didn't know needed to be asked like, "What does it mean to be in a relationship or to maintain a relationship from the distance of a computer?" And what's the distance like to maintain a relationship and all the intricacies of relating to a client over a screen? And also, what does prolonged screen usage from a clinical perspective do to the way that we view ourselves? I think it asked questions that allow us to go out and search to find the answers to, questions that we may not have even asked if this pandemic didn't happen.
Yeah. The questions I feel like I've heard that it asked is, who are the people that are really under served? I think when we talk about pressure telling the truth, I think the pressure of the pandemic told a lot of truths about the counseling field and the people we serve that maybe some people weren't ready to hear, maybe people were ready to hear and finally we can start serving these populations. But I think that's the way it's pushed us because we have to go out and find and find a way to serve these populations.
Nice. So do you think that this thing that we've just gone through is enough to entice more people to be a part of this field and to help to better serve and to support counseling students?
Anecdotally, yeah. Anecdotally, I feel like I sense less stigma around getting help and especially in Black and Brown communities where it was taboo where, I feel like, now it's like, "Oh. There's options. Oh. There's people like us."
[crosstalk 00:37:46] being reflected in the athletes [crosstalk 00:37:51] different Olympians, when you look at different NBA players and NFL players. You can see that reflected in this transition via social media, the transition of, "Oh, okay. So it's not just me that is in therapy and that needs therapy." So this ideal that, especially as technology are being advanced in the way that we can have access to therapy, I think it does entice people to be not just a part of the profession in the sense of being a consumer but also from a clinical perspective, people wanting to be a part of it.
So you are both athletes. The question that I've been often struggling with as of late... and this is across the different sports bills. I know you were in soccer.
But in the NFL, football, one of the things that I've been noticing lately is the advertisement about mental wellness. But there seems to be something missing. Before I even ask you what that is, I'm not going to go into it and say what I think it is. But I just want to hear your perspective on what I just said to you just now when you see the advertisements about mental wellness coming from the football arena.
So, yeah. And this is just one of the things. But I feel like one of the things that's missing is... yeah. There's several things. As I'm thinking about it, I'm like, "Yeah. There's a lot that's missing," because we have an interesting perspective of being a part of the athletic community while also being a part of the counseling community. So I think from a-
And that's really where I want to go with that is that, for me, what I've seen missing is the counselor.
Yeah. I think it's very difficult to... I think our training in general. So we can treat the myriad of clients. But I think specific populations like athletes are different or could be different from the general population that a clinician could-
I mean, it's a special population.
So stress looks different. Anxiety looks different. The pressure looks different for someone who's a high-performing athlete. And I think that's the things that's missing is the voice of clinicians within that process to not consumerize the ideal of therapy but almost humanize it.
Yeah. The message is a great one. I will never stop anyone from trying to help. But when you talk about finding help and finding your mental wellness, you also have to talk about how one could get there. It must be inclusive of the counselors who are standing here ready to do that work.
So we talked about the Black community. We talked about the things that are happening because of the pandemic. The social environment has changed so much. The role of advocacy to improve financial equity in the counseling field and how this could help counseling students and new graduate students in particular, can you talk about that? How do we improve access to mental health care for everyone?
I think what you said about athletes is probably going to ring true here to is that improving access, I think, starts with showing people that counselors are accessible, counselors like me and you and Julius, we're out there, because it's hard to find a counselor that looks like you. I know in my community, there's me and one other African-American male who we trade referrals to. We went through the graduate program together. And so I think if we're talking about how do we improve access, it's finding better ways to advocate for ourselves as a field, advocate for ourselves as clinicians to say that we're out there. And we're ready to serve. Yeah.
He just dropped the mic on that one, huh, Julius?
Yeah. It's one of those things where, as a student, you think, "Oh, yeah. There's people that's out there that's ready. As soon as I get my license and I jump out there into the world, people are going to be there." "If you build it, they will come."
And then you jump out there. And it's like, "I know there's people that need help. But how [crosstalk 00:42:55]? How are they and why are they not getting to me?"
So I think advocating for ourselves with the ideal of, "Oh, I need to go to the..." so where are the people? In the barber shops, in the community centers, in my kid's soccer league and the parents that's going through a divorce or whatever. And being accessible like, "This is my identity as a clinician. And because this is my identity, these are the things that I can provide to the community at large."
Let me add this real quick. Sometimes, people think advocacy is this big thing. But oftentimes, advocacy starts with your influence in your community, being out there. You don't have to wear a shirt that says, "I'm a therapist." But you have to remember that you are a therapist wherever you go.
And going out there because people have to see you. They have to trust you and be willing to accept you into their community.
So which of the two of you led the other to this profession? I can't imagine that you both had it at the same time. Who jump-started the two twin brothers heading into counseling?
I think we stumbled blindly together into this experience.
Yeah. I think people will sometimes think that; my brother or I decided. And then it was like, "Oh, yeah. That seems cool. Let me jump on."
It was really a, "Hey. I'm interested in this." "Oh, yeah. Me too. Well, let's try to do it." And then-
Okay. So it was a conversation.
It was a conversation. And you was like, "You know what? I'm going to jump into this master's program over here."
Yeah. But I also think that it was little, small whispers of our parents and our grandparents of-
And community members of projects that we've done.
And coaches of when we look back and when we're reflective about our process coming into the profession of, "Oh, yeah. This does feel like a natural fit for us."
Yeah. And I feel that same way. I think I had a natural progression into this profession as well. Each job that I had leading up to me getting into my master's program actually was telling me that this is the career for me.
It was after that first session where I was like, "Oh, yeah. This is it."
Yeah. "This feels like I have a stadium full of people around me. I feel the pressure."
So after your first class, so tell me, both of you. When you walked out of your first class, what was the first thing that you said to yourself after you taught your first class?
Oh. After we taught our first class?
I thought, "How do people do this for so long?" So this is what I thought. I'm in class. I'm thinking, "Oh. A three-hour graduate class is a really long time."
And you sit in it. And then all of a sudden, it's like, "Wait. It's been two hours. And there's 45 minutes? I haven't even gotten to the meat of the lecture yet. Can you guys spare another three hours? Can you please-"
"What are you guys doing tonight?"
I got so much to give you guys. Don't leave me.
"I got so much to give. What are you all [crosstalk 00:46:19]."
"I got 100 pages of notes, man. I got 100 slides. We only got through 10."
So let me tell you. Before you answer, I'm going to say this was what my response was. I was sitting there after my first class. And I was like, "Wow. You really do know this stuff."
I was like, "Did they get what they need?" I was like, "I think so. Did they get what they need?"
Yeah. I was like, "Why am I so hot and sweaty?"
Yeah, like, "Why is it so muggy outside?"
Sweating through my jackets.
I'm sweating through my jacket.
And I wasn't nervous. Oh, my god. I was so worried.
There was so much energy. I felt like I could run a half-marathon after.
Yeah, okay. So the other question I have to you. When I used to leave out of my classes early on in my career, I used to have people, my mentors that I would reach out to on my drive home. What was that like? Was there anything like that happening for you all the first semester?
So with us, our family know our schedules and what we're doing. So I remember teaching my first class. And, I mean, before I even got out of the door, because students sometimes linger on, my dad was calling. My mom was calling. My sister was calling. I got in the car and just called everybody on-
... three, four-way on speaker just because I wanted to just get this experience out one time.
Get it out, mm-hmm (affirmative).
One time so I didn't have to make four or five calls.
Very nice. All right. So we're coming up on the end of this hour. And I wanted to ask about your hopes and your dreams for our counseling profession. It's a profession that is going to continue to grow the learning and the adapting that's there and what we hope the role of a counselor or a counselor educator is going to be and how we instill that into our students and what that looks like.
So can you talk a little bit about your hopes, the things that you're hoping to do? First of all, what's next? After this book and the other things that you've been doing, what's next? And what's your hope for this counseling profession?
Man. Well, next, we got another book coming out for ACA, surprise. It's going to be about how to do counseling in a way that, we feel like, is humble and respective and inclusive, that process. So that's the next thing, presenting at the ACA. And so anybody out there can find us at ACA. Come to our booth or whatever and find us.
You all are inviting writers in with you? Or are you all just doing it on the solo?
I think we're doing it solo because, in our doc program, we wrote down our ideals in journals about what books we wanted to write. I think now we're at the point where we are comfortable. And we feel like our relationships are strong enough to invite other people in to those things.
But as far as hopes, my biggest hope is that we can focus on training... my biggest hope is that what the pandemic has showed us is how important it is to build healthy relationships with clients and not to say to get back to basics but to really train presence and therapeutic presence and train students on how to manage multiple relationships and dynamics, to make counselor training more dynamic and fluid because the field is changing. We have students who went from practicum to internship II in a completely different counseling field from when they started practicum. And so to be able to really get down to training students on how important it is to show up, be there for the community, work individually, work with couples, all of that stuff, that's my hope.
Yeah. If I can squeeze in real quick, I think, similar to what you're saying, Jude, one of my biggest hopes is that we mold and shift the counseling field in a reflective way to what society looks like. So as we transition to some of the needs that are going to come out of the pandemic, whether it's more adaptive technologies to have people be a little bit more inclusive with the way that they do therapy, to be inclusive of the communities that need therapy. I think I would really hope that the profession is malleable to the society's needs.
Very good. Well, thank you both for inspiring the world. It's great to see you show up and show out as brothers who are just doing your thing. There's no preconceived notion here about who you are or what you should be, that you were an athlete, that you were this, that you were that. It was that you had a heart for counseling. And you put forward that to the counseling community as a whole.
And some time back, you asked me to be a part of a project that you all were doing. And I stumbled away from it. And I didn't get a chance to do it. I hope you all don't forget me when you all get all up in the-
We hold grudges. No. I'm kidding. We don't. Of course, not.
I'm just messing with you all. It's been great talking with you two. And I can see you both have your own identity more so than just twin brothers. You are doing your thing each individually.
Very powerful narrative that you all have. Continue to put it forth. And I thank you for being a guest today.
Thank you. Thanks for the invite. This was awesome.
This has been The Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. Today we are here with the Austin brothers, Julius and Jude. And I want to thank them for their inspiring words. You all have a great rest of your day.
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