Episode 019 – Strategies and Initiatives to Support Black Men

Announcer:
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling, presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is Strategies and Initiatives to Support Black Men, and features Dr. Erik Hines.


Dr. S. Kent Butler:
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler, and joining us today, Dr. Erik Hines. Dr. Hines is an associate professor in the Department of Educational Psychology and Learning Systems at Florida State University, as well as the coordinator of the Counselor Education Program and the School Counseling Track. Dr. Hines' research agenda centers around college and career readiness for Black males, parental involvement and its impact on academic achievement for students of color, and improving and increasing post-secondary opportunities for first generation, low income, and students of color, particularly Black males. His research has appeared in peer-reviewed journals such as the Journal of Counseling & Development, Professional School Counseling, and there's a special issue that just came out that we'll get a chance to talk about today, and the High School Journal in Urban Education. Dr. Hines received his PhD from the University of Maryland, College Park in counselor education, with a concentration in urban school counseling. Finally, he has worked as a counselor in various K-12 settings and for the Ronald E. McNair Post-baccalaureate Achievement Program. Without any further ado, let's bring him in. What's going on, Dr. Hines?

Dr. Erik Hines:
How you doing, President Butler? How are you today?

Dr. Butler:
I'm well. I'm doing very, very well. It's good to see you. I'm glad you're here-

Dr. Hines:
Likewise.

Dr. Butler:
And I get an opportunity to talk with you. Dr. Hines, you have taken on an extraordinary role within the American Counseling Association as a treasurer for this year's governing council. So what's that been like? How's that been for you? I know I put you into some work.

Dr. Hines:
So let me first start off by saying thank you for the invitation and even considering me for such a task, making sure that our memberships finances are on par and that we stay in the black. So far, it has been good. It's been, not only a great learning experience about understanding the finances of ACA and understanding where resources are allocated, but also learning more about the organization and the structure in and of itself. I think we have a great group of financial affairs committee members who contribute substantively, individuals who have decades of experience that contribute knowledge. The
ACA staff has been phenomenal, Dave and Carol and Natasha and Rich on the FAC. And if I'm forgetting anybody else, please forgive me. It's been good. It's been a lot of work. Special shout out to you for getting a strategic plan pushed through and passed. So now we're going to start, as a matter of fact, soon working on the new budget to coincide with the strategic plan so that President-elect Frazier will be able to continue to run ACA as successfully and efficiently as you have done so far.

Dr. Butler:
Thank you for saying that. We definitely have come into this as a team, and I really appreciate your efforts. One of the things that I wanted to kind of do in this presidency was to bring in individuals who never really have been a part of the table before. And so in bringing you on and knowing who you are as an individual, it was really exciting. You may or may not have had a whole lot of background in financial affairs work. And so did I kind of shock you with that? What was that like for you?

Dr. Hines:
Yes. When you FaceTimed me, I was like, "Why is Kent FaceTiming me?" And then you asked me, and I was like... I did. I had to take 48 hours to think about it.

Dr. Butler:
Yeah. That's right. That's true.

Dr. Hines:
I was just concerned. And I think the concern was really about okay, President Butler is asking me, which is an honor, making sure that I could do the job and do it well. Are there things I'm learning along the way? Yes. Is there extra homework I've been doing? Oh, yes, sure. But I think overall, it is definitely a great experience. Sometimes we have our ups and downs and agree to disagree, and I'm talking about as a committee and as governing council. But I think that's what makes being a treasurer great, because you have multiple perspectives, and you hear them all, and all the perspectives are for the good of the organization and the members of the organization. So yes, I was surprised, and it has been a learning curve, but it's been great because some of the things that I learn and understand about the finances of ACA really helps me think about what's going to be in the best interest of our membership? What is going to be in the best interest of individuals who work in the counseling field? How can we make sure that our organization is, not only in great financial standing, because that's going to help with advocating for our counselors to get, not only their needs met, but also the resources and ensuring that we are up to date and up to par with the latest technology and standards and policies that come with the counseling profession?

Dr. Hines:
So I know Wu-Tang says, "Cash rules everything around me," but in the sense, if you think about it, if we don't have the resources and if we don't have the... And by the way, let me say this. ACA is in the black. We're doing [crosstalk 00:06:32]. So I want to say that. So shout out the President Butler again. So if we don't have-

Dr. Butler:
[crosstalk 00:06:41]. Think it's more of all of us making sure that we're doing the right thing, but I want to give you a shout out too, because you came in, and you didn't give me any pushback. You just said, "Yes, I'm willing to serve." And I just really appreciate that. I noticed you took the time to kind talk it over with your wife and other things to kind of make sure that this was the right track for you, but you have been doing nothing but stellar work-

Dr. Hines:
Oh, thank you.

Dr. Butler:
And getting the information out to not only the governing council members, but to our organization as a whole. And the questions that you ask are really pertinent, because I think there are questions that I was asking and wanted to ask. And one of the things that really was a blessing is that I think our relationship got even stronger in terms of us being able to communicate and talk back and forth and be a ear for each other and things along those lines. So I really appreciate you for taking on this task. And I knew that you could do it. And so that was the best part. And so when you said yes, it was like I was asking my wife to marry me all over again.

Dr. Hines:
I appreciate that.

Dr. Butler:
I'm kidding.

Dr. Hines:
Thank you for you trust in me.

Dr. Butler:
So when you first got into the counseling field, did you know that this was the area that you were going to be heading in? Or did you kind of find yourself as you were studying to become a counselor?

Dr. Hines:
I knew since the age of 19 that I wanted to be a school counselor. I was doing what we would call career development, just thinking about my interests, just thinking about my goals. And it centers around parents, right?

Dr. Butler:
Right.

Dr. Hines:
So I was in community college, and I didn't take it so seriously when I first started. I was like, this is 13th grade. But my mother was always asked me, "What are you going to do with your life? Life is serious. What do you want to do in your career?" And then I did the normal, like a freshman, a first-year student would do, going through a couple of majors, saying oh, I like this, but didn't want to put in the work. And part of the work was not being committed. It's one thing to have a passion about something, but it's one thing to be committed. So one day I did fail a class, and my mother was like, "I'm not paying for college for you anymore. You're going to do it." So adulthood hit real quickly, and I looked at what I was doing. I was working in my Sunday school at my church at the time, and I was like I really like working with kids. I really like motivating them, speaking life, being positive. And then I had a junior high school counselor who spent all this time with us, and he would do things like take us on trips. He had an afterschool program for a lot of us, and we learned about finances. We learned about extracurricular activities and academics.

Dr. Butler:
[crosstalk 00:09:50]. Yeah. I see that tie into finances story.

Dr. Hines:
Oh, he used to show us his wallet. He said, "Hey." And I think that's what got me hooked too. He'll show us like ten $100 bills and say, "Hey, if you go to college, if you're doing the work, you can have this." And I was like oh, school councilors make this money?

Dr. Butler:
[crosstalk 00:10:11]. That was a payday.

Dr. Hines:
Yes. The hook. He got me with the hook with the dollar. Oh, there you go. And so I decided that that's what I wanted to do. And I pursued an undergraduate degree in teacher ed and social sciences. One, I liked history, and I wanted to understand too what is it like to be a school teacher? Because for me being a school counselor, I just wanted to understand the dynamics of what goes on in the classroom and in the school. And at the time, this was at the time, about 20 years ago, I thought oh, okay, well, if I have a teaching background, I can get some buy-in from teachers being a school counselor. So.

Dr. Butler:
Wow. Wow.

Dr. Hines:
That's why I got into it.

Dr. Butler:
That's great. Our lives kind of parallel a lot. First of all, you had some impact on the students at the great University of Connecticut, UConn [crosstalk 00:11:08].

Dr. Hines:
Your institution.

Dr. Butler:
And I came from that. That was my home for in many years. But I think that that's really interesting that you got involved with youth because of you wanted them to be able to persevere and find themselves. I kind of did that track too. When I was an undergrad, I started working with trio programs and programs
of the like that helped me to kind of help youth kind of find themselves. And so I see that parallel in terms of the things that you and I have been doing and why we got involved with working with young people in the first place. So that's pretty cool. I think that might be a reason why a lot of, especially Black males, have gotten into wanting to become a teacher or become a counselor. I know that I also in my graduate work was working as a instructor for teacher education, and so I was learning the ropes about what a teacher did as well. So I'm really liking that we have such a parallel there. When you found
yourself to be in the position of a counselor educator, though, what was your mission then?

Dr. Hines:
To train school counselors to work with students like me, students who would be considered underrepresented in some fields, like science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, to work with Black students. We have seen this resurgence... Well, it never went away... of anti-Blackness against our
students, particularly Black boys being adultified, or the notion of... Not notion, but the term adultification, where Black boys and even Black girls are seen as older, more adult, and because of that, they tend to get harsher penalties and criminalized for behavior that's normally developmentally
appropriate. So I set out to want to train school counselors to be culturally responsive, understanding how to work with students, giving teachers, because we can do professional development, the tools they need to work with students of color, work with students who may be considered marginalized, and
even students who are potentially first-generation college students, to be able to ensure that they get the resources they need to be successful. I mean, in education, one of the things that we learn is to be prepared for life through a series of tools and learning modules and theoretical practices. So that's what I really am doing and still love to do now as a counseling educator, ensuring that our next generation of counselors know how to work with our new generation of students.

Dr. Butler:
I'm glad you said that. And I want to ask you a question, because I think you and I-

Dr. Hines:
Sure.

Dr. Butler:
Talked about this not too long ago. And you have great work in journals, and you've done this great work with the PSC Journal with the special issue coming out. One of the things we talked about was how do we get it from journal form, where people go to get research-based information, to actually putting it
into action and making it practical for everyday teachers and school counselors? What would you say are the things that we can do as counselors that can help people to kind of understand why criminalizing and making the adultification of youth the forefront of how they see them, how we can change that
dynamic? So when we talk with them about that, what does that look like? Can we kind of bring it to a spirit where people can kind of stand it without having to pick up a journal article? What would they need to do to understand how to work with Black youth so that they can be young people, they can
grow and become developed into the adults that they need to become in the right same pattern that any other student would who isn't criminal or made to be an adult so soon?

Dr. Hines:
Well, I'll tell you, for me, what I do is... And I know a lot of other counselor educators do the same, is we got to get out into the schools. We got to form relationships, collaboration with different school districts, being able to get buy-in from educational leaders and other school counselors who are on the ground, who are on the front lines, working with students, and cultivating those relationships to be hey, I want to be a partner in making sure you could do your job well and help students well, as opposed to me always coming in and being seen as the expert. Yes, I have expert expertise, or we have expertise in certain areas, but the goal is to really, like you said, translate this research into a conversation and best practices to help educators, and in this case, school counselors do their job. So that's one way.

Dr. Hines:
The other way, we talked about it again, is doing a pipeline. So here at Florida State, we started an online school counseling program, the only online school counseling program in the state. And what I've been doing, and what we've been seeing actually in our admissions pool is a lot of school teachers. So I talk with school teachers day in and day out as students, where we talk about school counseling, and they're actually applying some of the theories and some of the practices that they're learning in the classroom, I mean, in our classroom, in the college, into their classroom [crosstalk 00:17:10], and they're working with their school counselors. So they're a myriad of ways. And think about technology now, like for example, we're doing this webinar... Not webinar... we're doing the podcast, and the places that it's being posted, where folks can actually have access to this information from YouTube to Twitter to Instagram, Facebook. So I believe the information is much more accessible than it would've been like 10, 15 years ago.

Dr. Hines:
And then disseminating it, I know I do, to practicing school counselors and even educators that I know. I sent an article on adultification of Black males that I was the first author and co-authored with James Moore, Dr. Donald Ford, and Dr. Eddie Fletcher Jr., Dr. James Moore, sorry, III. And I sent it to a
superintendent. He was like, "Oh, thanks. This is great. I look forward to reading it." So really having those ways of partnering with folks that the information can get to them rather than... Because some of these journals aren't accessible unless you work at a university.

Dr. Butler:
Exactly. Exactly.

Dr. Hines:
Right?

Dr. Butler:
Right. And so that's what I was saying. Then you top that with the fact that there are people who have fear because of stories that they've been told, narratives that weren't maybe true, that help to stereotype young people and make them feel a certain kind a way. So how do we combat that? How do
we go into the schools and help people stop being so fearful of these young people, stop being so caught up in the narratives that were false, that were sharing with them growing up, so that they can kind of then see these individuals as human beings and actually young people who are just wanting that
kind of attention, that need for the help of an adult who can come into this space and make sure that they are safe and that they are able to learn?

Dr. Hines:
So one of the songs I like by Beyonce is Me, Myself and I. It's what I got to the end. So in saying that is as educators, as school counselors, we need to examine our biases and beliefs. It starts with us. Why do I feel this way about Black boys? Where do I get these beliefs? Where did it start? What age? Why do I feel like this, when a 16-year-old, 6'5" young man comes into my office, and he's only a boy, and I feel like he is-

Dr. Butler:
[crosstalk 00:19:37]. I get that, and I understand that there's feelings here, and they don't necessarily think about that when they're dealing with them. They're not thinking that they have these fears or these types of preconceived notions about these young people, but how do we engage them in a
conversation or help them see themselves in being either complicit or a part of the things that are helping these young people stay, I guess, in situations where they are being put in trouble, suspended from school, all these other things, but how can we do this in a way that they see it without feeling that
we're coming for them for being racist or... You know what I'm saying? So we always caught up in the side story that's not about this true story, which is how you treated this young person.

Dr. Hines:
Well, that's the relationship building. That's the buy-in that you need to have with educators to be able to have that conversation. And let me add this caveat. Every conversation is not going to be nice. You may just have to call it like it is. That's just how it is. You're going to have to call out individuals who may be perpetuating racist acts or perpetuating anti-Blackness. But I mean, the core of it is we have to develop those relationships to really have folks see it. But also I think the other piece, and I teach this in my multicultural course, is that being culturally competent is not an endpoint. It is a journey. So how are we making sure that individuals who may consciously or unconsciously perpetuate these isms, how do we ensure that they understand that okay, I'm trying to work on myself, but I may make them a mistake? And it's okay to make the mistake. Let me acknowledge it to the parties that I've offended. Let me even acknowledge it to my colleagues and then say, "This is what I'm going continue to do to do the work. Now we're giving them the tools and the resources.

Dr. Butler:
And that's the point I'm talking about. That's the part I'm talking about. How do we make it so that it's not about them, feeling that the pressure is then on them to say that look, you're seeing me as a racist, or you're seeing me as this, or you're seeing me as that? And again, like I said, it takes it away from the true nature of what's going on in the room, because we're making it about them and not about what has happened in this situation. And so is there a way, besides rebuilding of rapport that you're talking about, that helps them to stop feeling white guilt, that fragility, that whatever comes up when they get put into a situation like that? You know what I'm talking about? Am I making sense?

Dr. Hines:
Yes [crosstalk 00:22:29]. And I'm saying doing the work, having the conversation. I mean, you have to call it out. And I think the other piece, when you're saying the white guilt, is basically saying that, all right, we need to move on from how you feel. This is what the situation looks like, and being able to
address or remedy that situation in particular. And so that's what we give them, the tools and the resources to understand, okay, all right, it's not about me. It's how I make the child feel, but this is what I need to be doing going forward.

Dr. Butler:
Okay. All right. So we get there. We start building that rapport. And we talk with these counselors about dealing with engaging with parents, especially if parents [crosstalk 00:23:21]. What does that look like?

Dr. Hines:
Engaging with parents?

Dr. Butler:
Yeah.

Dr. Hines:
One of the things you need to do... And this is what I've done, even working in the schools. I say, "Mom and Dad, you're the expert. You've birthed the child. You've raised him or her or they. And guess what? I want to make sure that we have a conversation that we all walk away saying what is the best needs of the child?" And then really understanding the context and the background of your parents. Just because a parent may not come from a certain social class doesn't mean that the parent doesn't know best for their child. And I think when we talk about, especially with white educators that talking to Black parents, that they may not know what's best for their child, which is far from the truth. And so when we see those things and hear those things, that's where we have to do those trainings around professional development to really call it out, talk about it, process it. And what are the tools needed to forward?

Dr. Hines:
One of the best things you could do for a parent or to a parent is making sure that you are complimenting. What are the strengths of their child or their Black boy? What are they doing right? And then coming in at, "These are some of the concerns, but these concerns are not necessarily the end all
for your son. This is kind of how we can rectify it." And then, "Can you give me some tools of what I can do in the classroom, whether it's academic, whether it's behavioral, to ensure the success of your son?"

Dr. Butler:
And community building.

Dr. Hines:
Build community, build relationships, but also understanding that the parents know what's best.

Dr. Butler:
Right, right, right. And I think that's it too, because so many times parents are called into the school, and they're coming in because of a disciplinary issue. And at that point, they're pitted against the administration, the teacher, or this counselor, as opposed to working in conjunction with one another to make a better pathway for the child.

Dr. Hines:
And in this case, if we talk about Black boys and Black girls, we talk about Black students, sometimes, if not the majority of the time, it's a guilty before proven innocent. "I'm going to call your mom right away," rather than trying to get the story, understand the context of the story and what is happened before we get the parent involved or penalizing the student. So many times Black students don't get thebenefit of the doubt. So therefore, you see the disconnect between the Black parents and the school, like oh my, I'm not fooling with this teacher or this or that. And I know you talk from personal experience, and I can talk from personal experience-

Dr. Butler:
[crosstalk 00:26:11]. And recognizing that that parent is also talking about their experiences when they were in the school system at the same time.

Dr. Hines:
Yes. Correct.

Dr. Butler:
So there's a lot of threads that are really needing to be connected.

Dr. Hines:
Correct. Correct. And not dismissing the voice of parents or dismissing the voice of students. "Oh, this happens all the time," or, "You don't need to worry about it." Oh, I do need to worry about it. I want to make sure my son doesn't have anything in his file once he moves on to middle school or high school. I do need to be concerned about it.

Dr. Butler:
Right, right. Yeah, because recognizing also that those things stick with a kid throughout the rest of their education-

Dr. Hines:
Correct.

Dr. Butler:
When they're misdiagnosed or treated unfairly within the school system.

Dr. Hines:
And although parents may do the work and try to definitely understand the conversation that is going on, especially around diagnoses and IEP and 504, we got to make sure that we ensure that the parents know what we're talking about and not necessarily saying this is us against them, but again, centering the child and making sure that their needs are met so that they could be successful and making sure that the parent is incorporated at every step and ensuring that they feel comfortable asking questions that they may not feel like, oh, this teacher is judging me or this administrator or this counselor.

Dr. Butler:
Well, that's really cool. Thank you for sharing that. So I'm going to do a little bit of a pivot real quick and-

Dr. Hines:
That's fine.

Dr. Butler:
Talk to you a little bit about the two special editions that I know, or special issues, that you've had, one, Group Work With African American Children and Adolescents that you published in the Journal of Specialists in Group Work, and the other with the PSC. Two phenomenal pieces of work that you've been able to kind of put forth. Can you talk about the intricacy of what it takes to be able to do something like that? Because you've gotten awards for that. You're an ACA fellow. All these things have come out of the work that you have been doing in your career. Can you talk about, though... A lot of people don't understand the behind the scenes piece that goes into doing that. Can you kind of talk about that in a way that people can understand that this is not just that I wrote this thing. I really had to put some legwork into doing this work to make sure that it's out in the public for people who are practicing to be able to gravitate towards?

Dr. Hines:
Okay. So I'll talk about the special issue in Group Work. It's volume 45, by the way, issues one through four, looking at doing group work with Black adolescents and youth. I think the first thing I would want to say is that it's just not me by myself. So Sam Steen was the lead on it. A special recognition to him and Group Work and being one of the associate editors in the Group Work Journal. And that's his passion, is Group Work. So remember we talked about it in our group group chat. I think one of the ways that this started was we wanted to honor Dr. Robert Colbert, who passed away a phenomenal professor, a phenomenal counselor educator in our field at the University of Connecticut when I was there. So Sam came up with this great idea of saying, "Hey, who wants to help? "And then I just chimed in and said, "Yes, I would love to do it." I've been a reviewer, so again, I thought this would be a great opportunity to expand my skills in editing.

Dr. Hines:
And so Sam and I put out a call for manuscripts, and we got about... I want to say 22 back, which they'd
all been published. We said that we were going to make sure that all manuscripts are up to scholarly and publishable levels, and 22 phenomenal manuscripts now from group work with athletes to group work with girls to group work with immigrant Black youth. So it took about a year or so continually editing, going back and forth. We had some phenomenal reviewers as well that helped us through the process. And I would say we just wanted to make sure that everybody, that their writing was great. And it was. And we wanted make sure that we added-

Dr. Butler:
[crosstalk 00:31:01]. Let me pull you back.

Dr. Hines:
Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Dr. Butler:
I want to find out what went into you wanting to do this, but we'll talk this after the break. But thank you for that. I'm glad to hear the history behind it and Dr. Colbert and everything else that went into that. But we'll take a break real quick, and we'll come back with Dr. Erik Hines. This is The Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. We'll be back in a few.

Narrator:
Counselors help positively impact lives by providing support, wellness, treatment. We're working to change lives. We are creating a world where every person has access to the quality, professional counseling, and mental health services needed to thrive.

Dr. Butler:
Welcome back to The Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler, and today we're here with Dr. Erik M. Hines. He's telling us a little bit about how his journey was to coming up with a special issue and what it took to kind of be a part of that and to bring it to fruition. So, Erik, what was that like? What was that process like when you decided that you wanted to get these contributors to come in and share about a particular topic, and this topic being about Black males? And I think the school counseling one was the same.

Dr. Hines:
Okay. Yeah. So with the group, it was Black youth and adolescents. So Sam had already talked to Christopher Goodrich, and he got a green light. So we wrote a one page proposal of what the special issue would look like. And from there, we got it approved. And then we kind of changed that proposal around into an advertisement and sent it to various venues, through [inaudible 00:33:09], through AERA's Division E. I know Sam sent it to a few folks. I sent it to a few folks. And so at that point-

Dr. Butler:
[crosstalk 00:33:21] 22 articles that you were able to get that you liked?

Dr. Hines:
Yes. Yeah, yeah, so that process was probably a little easier, because Sam had been wanting to do this for a while. And with my research on African American males and Black students in general, it just seemed like a great and nice fit. And part of it was meaningful for me because it gives a lens to really how do we work with Black students in group work? And it is very comprehensive, or at least the most comprehensive body of work around group work and Black students. So that's kind of how I got into that. And for the Professional School Counseling Journal, I believe it was back in 2016. It was Dr. James Moore, Dr. Paul Harris, and myself. We went to AERA to see... We went to a luncheon to see Dr. Moore get an award, and then we went to lunch, and we talked about Black males. We talked about some of the issues. And then we talked about hey, why don't we just create a special issue around Black males, or at least at the time Black males, but then we changed it to males of color to be more comprehensive, to be more inclusive, and school counseling?

Dr. Hines:
So put a proposal together, and we submitted it to an editor at the time at PSC. And we would getting the runaround about it, saying, "Oh, well, this needs to be changed," or, "Why are you focusing on males of color? And if you're going to focus on them, are you going to add this piece here?" And then you need, at the time, a full professor to be the lead on it. And so, although we'd been talking about it, it was just like a bunch of hula hoops. So we actually put it down, and we was like, "You know what? We're not going to jump through these hula hoops. We will see what happens." And then I believe maybe six months to a year later, the current editor came up, and then we tried it again. We reached out to the editor, and the editor was very open about it. We told her our vision, because we already had the proposal written. She just asked us to change a few things around. And I remember I was at the International Colloquium for Black Males in Education in Toronto. And we got the email and received the approval to go ahead and solicit it. So it wasn't just like this whole, oh yeah, boom, boom, boom.

Dr. Butler:
That's really what I wanted to talk about. It's a process. [crosstalk 00:36:09] You have to go through some different painstakingly harsh things to go through in order to make something like that come up.

Dr. Hines:
And for me... This is my perspective. And I think, especially when it comes to these type of journals and you're talking about Black folks. And I'll just be honest and put it out there. And so there was a process that was kind of, I mean, we almost walked away from it until we had that other opportunity.

Dr. Butler:
Yeah, you got pushback because it's like how does this serve the whole PSC audience, right?

Dr. Hines:
Yes, yes. And so we're proud of the authors. And I know our dear president of ACA and his lovely wife is one of the authors in our special issue, talking about Black boys and dyslexia. So check that out. Males of Color and School Counseling. It's online through the Professional School Counseling Journal. And so we're happy about-

Dr. Butler:
[crosstalk 00:37:14] shout out. You didn't have to put that out there, but we appreciate it. We appreciate it.

Dr. Hines:
But I do believe when it comes to doing this type of work, not that you want to expect it, but be prepared for any type of pushback, and I'll just say, in this case, when it comes to talking about individuals of African or Black descent.

Dr. Butler:
And so having that passion behind it also helps you to kind of... And also having a support system. I'm quite sure that you and Paul and James being together talking about how to move this narrative forward also gives you some permission to continue to fight this fight when you have the challenges and the hula hoops and those other things that come up, right?

Dr. Hines:
Oh, yes, yes. Fight the fight for the three of us and then even fighting the fight on the behalf of individuals who may not know how to do it or understand being the voice and being the advocate for those. So I think at this point in our careers, we are definitely up for the fight, and our plan is always to win in some way, shape, or form, because we take this research serious. We take our work serious. I know I take my work with Black students and Black males very seriously. So when their barriers are up, I figure out how to shatter those barriers.

Dr. Butler:
Nice. So I want to use the bulk of our time to talk about something that I think is very near and dear to you. And it's really about the deficit paradigm, school counselors working with the stereotypes that are put towards Black male students, and how do we take that deficit paradigm and move it towards a strength base, maybe one that's more culturally sensitive in terms of doing that? Talk about your research there and how come that's so important. And I think it's also attached to the program that you did at UConn with the young people in the residence hall. How do we get individuals to understand that we move to a strength base as opposed to seeing these young people from such a disadvantage or a bad vantage point, so to speak?

Dr. Hines:
So with the live and learning community that I was a faculty director of, ScHOLA²RS House, at the University of Connecticut, which is still going strong, and I give kudos to the university for having the courage to make sure that it was implemented and that it is still in its current form, one of the things that I do when we talk about Black boys and Black males is let's go back to the data. What is the data saying about Black men or Black boys in education, in employment? What are we seeing in the literature about educators who are typically white, suburban middle class and the treatment of Black boys? So there's just no conversation that comes out of nowhere or comes out of emotion. It's really about what is the data saying? What are our students experiences? So let's go from numbers. Let's go qualitative. Let's go to the voices. Are we centering Black males? And and what is being done? What are their experiences like? And so that's what I've used in my work, both quantitative and qualitatively. And that's how those conversations come up.

Dr. Hines:
And I often say this, people have something to say about Black males doing... And this was in reference to the learning community, but this could be applicable to a lot of settings. When it comes to them being on the field or on the court, celebrating them, we celebrate Black men in entertainment. We have no issues with that. Right?

Dr. Butler:
Right.

Dr. Hines:
Oh, they're making a touchdown, they got this good rap song, but something happens when we want to celebrate or give resources to make a equitable playing field in academics, in career, in wealth. All of a sudden, well, why are we doing this? Or even when there is the notion of, well, let's get them all together outside of a sport or kind of a celebratory fashion. People get nervous. They start having these conversations and these stereotypes. So we debunked those myths by saying hey... One of the conversations we had was, "Oh, well, they're all living together." Well, don't the majority of athletes live together as well? I mean, the majority of them are Black. We have nothing to say about that, but then when it's an academic endeavor, it becomes a problem. And as far as I remember, a lot of the Black males, they live with Black folks at home, their parents, their siblings, their extended family. So this is [crosstalk 00:42:21] phenomenal.

Dr. Butler:
[crosstalk 00:42:23]. People feel like we do gravitate towards the people who are more like us, and so if we can take away one thing that helps to get somebody to feel comfortable about their existence, and so you got them so they don't feel out of sorts in a place where they feel like they have to deal with those things in order to, on top of that, still do their studies, and on top of that, still do this other stuff, when you can create an environment for them to feel safe and secure so that they can go do the other things that are necessary for them to get their education done. I want to ask you [crosstalk 00:42:57]. Go ahead.

Dr. Hines:
No, I was going to say but not only a safe and secure environment. I think the other environment was we've seen other young Black men strive and excel and do great in their work. And I think that's something to be said when you have a study hall together, and all of these guys are striving for excellence, and they're pushing each other to the next level. And it's not just about sports. It's about engineering. It's about calculus. It's about science. So when these guys see each other and challenging each other to do well, that environment takes them to the next level.

Dr. Butler:
Yeah. I like that. I like that a lot. And so one of the things that I want to get your opinion on, a lot of times people talk about the achievement gap and there being this deficit in the achievement gap. And I'm of the mindset that there's no achievement gap, because they're intelligent individuals. There's a resource gap where [crosstalk 00:43:57] kids don't have access to these different things. So therefore, their intelligence doesn't blossom because they don't have that access. Can you talk about that perspective?

Dr. Hines:
Yeah. So the first thing I want to go back to, was there an achievement gap before integration? I mean, where students were, there were all Black schools. They had all Black teachers. They were going to historically Black colleges and universities, becoming scientists, becoming pilots, becoming teachers, doctors, lawyers. So I agree with you. It's a resource gap, but not only just a resource gap. What type of expectations are our educators holding our students to? Are they expecting lower expectations for Black students than they are their white students? Are they making assumptions about students not doing certain subjects well, as opposed to saying let me really find out? Are we using culturally competent diagnostics or assessments? That's another thing that could serve as a barrier to what we would say is a opportunity gap. And are the schools that a majority of our students going to, especially in urban areas, and I would even say rural areas... And down south, in the Southern regions, there are a lot of rural communities that are majority Black. Do they have the resources needed to ensure that Black students are doing well? So just like yours, my opinion and my research is really grounded in, again, let's look in at the data. And what resources can we do give to sure up those opportunity gaps for students to have a level playing field in education?

Dr. Butler:
So how do you respond to the person who says that your resources come from your taxes and what you have built into your own communities, and so your lack of resources is your own problem? What's your response to something like that?

Dr. Hines:
So we go back to the data. What's the home ownership look like in a Black community? We know that home ownership is typically lower for Black, African Americans, than it is for whites. So then we look at the tax base, because most of the school district's tax base comes from home assessments, home ownership, taxes. That's what I would say. So always going back to the data. And it is not just your problem. It's an American problem. And it is our imperative to make sure that all of our students are doing well, because that is when our whole country is doing well, right?

Dr. Butler:
Right, right. And that, again, goes back to-

Dr. Hines:
[crosstalk 00:46:46]. This is an American problem, not just your problem.

Dr. Butler:
There being equity in terms of how we see this, because we do know that those who might be in positions of power are putting less value on this particular type of property or this particular type of property. People are not getting loans and an ability to kind of grow and establish home equity and all these other pieces, not because of their own mission, but because others have a mission to stop them from moving forward.

Dr. Hines:
True patriotism is when everybody in our country is doing well. That's true patriotism. That means we care about everyone in our country and everyone is thriving, regardless of their race, their socioeconomic status, and their gender. That's where you come to equity. And if we do have certain groups that are not thriving, then we're going to give extra resources to ensure that they can achieve what we would call the American dream. If we're the melting pot, then the melting pot needs to make sure that the resources are there for everyone who are considered, or who are in this country rather. Excuse me.

Dr. Butler:
Then that's tied to someone being in a privileged position who denies someone because they don't like them or they don't see them as valuable. And so it's not anyone's... I was watching a movie the other day. It was A Long Walk Home. It was a old movie.

Dr. Hines:
[crosstalk 00:48:22]. Oh, I remember that movie.

Dr. Butler:
To watch it. And one of the things was they were saying things like, "They're lazy, and they don't want to work." And I'm like they're in your home cleaning your house. What are you talking about? These people are not lazy. And so they try to tie them not riding a bus to them being lazy individuals, not showing up for work and all these other things. And it's a total whitewashing of the narrative that people are lazy and that they don't want to work. There's never been a case where you can say that people did not put in their work. They just weren't valued in the work that they were putting in.

Dr. Hines:
Right. And we often forget that the terrible stain on our country of enslaved Blacks or enslaved Africans produced the majority of the wealth that our country has today.

Dr. Butler:
Yeah. You said a whole word there with regards to that. So we can have this conversation and understand it, but there are others who are always going to push back against that and say that we are just making excuses for why people aren't getting ahead. And the truth of the matter is we know, like you said, from data that people have not been able to move forward with terms of their own equitable type stance in the world because others have blocked their progress.

Dr. Hines:
I will say this. I mean, you have to continue to advocate. I mean, they are going to be voices of pushback, voices of resistance. And as we used to say, "Haters going to hate." So I think we have to continue to fight the good fight, as our ancestors have. And I believe at this time, as many of us who are educated, who have wealth, who are in a position of power ourselves, how are we making and making changes to ensure that these voices of dissent or resistance are starting to be drowned out with voices of those who can provide the resources and who can actually talk about the issues and bring solutions to the table? I mean, so I think that will always be with us. We're going to have to drown those voices out. And I know you and I are in positions at our institutions to combat and advocate for those who may not have the voice to advocate for themselves.

Dr. Butler:
I'm so super proud of you, Erik Hines, Dr. Erik Hines-

Dr. Hines:
Thank you, sir.

Dr. Butler:
For the work that you have put in. I'm so proud of you for being at the table and willing to use your voice and put forward the type of things that are necessary through your scholarship, because... And this is not like beating somebody at their own game. You understand that through scholarship and data that you can make the case and shut down that negative kind of paradigm that's there, that deficit model, all that stuff that people are putting out there. You're shutting them down with the proper feedback, involved with the proper data. And so I appreciate you for doing that. Any last words?

Dr. Hines:
When we talk about, I think Black boys, but even Black students in general, and Black people, I want to say empathy and compassion leads to stronger relationships. And so I think that would be my final word. If we could use these two counseling skills, the world would definitely shift into a much better place, even our country.

Dr. Butler:
Dr. Hines, thank you so much for being a guest today. This has been The Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler here from the American Counseling Association. We'll see you next time.

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