by
Joseph Peters
| Jan 06, 2022
Announcer:
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is getting to know Dr. Kimberly Frazier and features Dr. Kimberly N. Frazier.
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and joining us today is Dr. Kim Frazier. Dr. Kimberly N. Frazier is the president-elect of the American Counseling Association and will serve as its 71st president. She'll be coming onboard this year July 1, and she'll serve out her term for the year until 2023. She is one of eight African-Americans to be elected to the role of the ACA presidency. And she's also a distinguished member of the ACA Fellow Class of Fellows. Dr. Kimberly N. Frazier received her PhD in counselor education from the University of New Orleans. She holds her license in the State of Louisiana as a professional LPC, and she is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she has certification and is a nationally certified counselor. Currently she is associate professor in the Department of Clinical Rehabilitation and Counseling at Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center, here, there in New Orleans. Not here, because I'm not there.
Anyway, her research areas are of interest with regards to pediatric populations, culture-centered counseling interventions and training, and systemic oppression and trauma with families and children. So with that, please help me in joining to our stage, Dr. Kimberly N. Frazier. How are you doing?
I'm good. I'm good. That was a long bio young lady. So you are ready to step into this role.
Ready as I'll ever be. That's what I'll say, ready as I'll ever be.
What's it been like up until today, knowing that this challenge is coming your way in a couple of months?
Well, I've told you several times it's great to do this with you, to have you along with me in the ride and to see you kind of do your thing. Some of the stuff I was not prepared for. The meetings that are every week, I was not prepared for that. I'm overwhelmed with a lot of the emails that I'm getting from other people seeing themselves reflected back and being really happy for you and that sort of thing. So it's balancing the work of it and then making sure that you're showing the community the well part of it. You're giving back to the community and showing the community [crosstalk 00:03:00].
That's a great point to make. So what are you doing for self-care? Because that is a very important part of this year is taking care of yourself.
This is, yes. So one of my initiatives is actually wellness. I want us to focus on wellness after getting out of this two-year or hopefully getting out of the two years that we've had. So I joined Peloton and exercise and do these things. So my hope is-
You're one of those people? You bought a Peloton?
Yes. I'm one of those people. I am. You have to blame some other counselors who got me in on this. So it's their fault. They were like, "Yes, you can do this." So one of my initiatives is to actually watch your wellness and have people kind of talk about what they do for wellness. I think it's important to do wellness. Right now, I work out at least four times a week. Yeah, four times a week in some way, shape or form. And really kind of I go with the tip that one of my mentors, Dr. Barbara Swaby, told me that, "Once you're done with your work, don't take your work home." So I try to really schedule this is work time and after this time, we're not doing any more work.
[crosstalk 00:04:17] work that out during this past two years.
During the pandemic, right? So because I couldn't say, "Oh, in the office, I do this and after I get in my car, I don't do this anymore," I had to really schedule myself and say between this time to this time, this is what I'm doing. And then after that, I don't do it anymore. I don't work on anything that is work-related on the weekend. I really try to keep that for family stuff and friends, because I keep trying to prepare them so you know next year you're not really going to see me like this. So get this all in now.
Yes, because for a year you will not see me. It will be back to the dissertation. It'll be like the dissertation where you hardly ever saw me. I was just this ghost.
Speaking of that, let's talk about your journey. How did you get here? Tell us about this pathway that you became a counselor.
So the path was not a typical path I would say. I was at Xavier University in Louisiana HBCU. Most of my professors were clinical psychologists or counseling psychologists. So that was the thing that was being pushed. I knew I didn't really want to prescribe drugs. It wasn't my thing. I was like, "I don't really want to be responsible for that if I want to work with kids." But I knew there should have been something else. There must be something else, but I don't know what that is. So I held off applying to a clinical psychology program, because I really wanted to do industrial organizational psychology, but it wasn't... There was four programs at the time I was looking at it and I didn't want to go that far away from home. So I said, let me wait a year to apply and I-
What would you have been doing in that type of position?
What, in industrial organizational?
Looking at systems, I'm a systems person, but looking at corporations and how they work and trying to decide better ways for them to kind of work better in the system. So I really love that. That's probably why I'm a systems person now, but-
[crosstalk 00:06:31] but I didn't know that about you. I didn't know that your route was that way. So right after undergrad, you went right into your Master's program or you waited that year?
Right into the Master's program, because I said, I don't want to waste time. So why don't I get into this Master's in counseling at Xavier and then apply to the clinical psych programs a year later?
Then you go and love the counseling.
I did. So Cirecie West-Olatunji was like, "I think you're going to fall in love with this," because I wound up seeing her in her office. And I said, "Hey, I'm trying to apply to the program." So she was one of the key people to kind of get me into this counseling entity. And she was so passionate about it. I was like, "If I could have a 10th of that, maybe I'd be on to something."
Yeah. Even today she still has that energy doesn't she?
She does. She was an amazing professor.
So she was one of those individuals that were a part of your journey. Who else? You named two people so far. Who else impacted you on your journey?
Dr. Asa Hilliard. So I went to The Association of Black Psychologist Conference with Dr. West-Olatunji as her graduate student and at the conference, they had all the graduate students that were attending the conference up. So everyone knew who they were. So they would try to find us and talk to us. And Dr. Asa Hilliard apparently found out I was graduating and said, "So are you getting a PhD?" And I was like, "Well, no, I'm just going to hang up this shingle and help children." And so, he told me, "If you can think of one reason why you shouldn't get your PhD, then you can tell me tomorrow." I was like, "What am I going to tell Dr. Asa Hilliard about not getting a PhD?" So he literally, he felt... I was like, maybe he won't find me, right? So I'm stressed out the whole night. And he found me the next day and said, "Okay, Kimberly, so what did you come up with?" And I was like, "There's nothing I can tell you to say why I wouldn't get a PhD."
So I guess, I'm applying to programs, because I was pushing back on Cirecie with applying. I was like, "Well maybe I shouldn't and I could just... Maybe I'll take a year off," kind of thing. So once he came into the picture, it's what do you tell Dr. Asa Hilliard about why you're not going to do something. And so, that is why I wound up going to a PhD program. I mean, one of the reasons I had already been interested in it, but that was one of the reasons why, one of the main catalysts for me to go ahead and apply and do this thing called PhD.
When did you become a Delta?
I became a Delta fall '97, Gamma Alpha Xavier University.
I didn't ask you for all of that. I said-
When you ask, that every Delta gives all of that.
You have to give all the information.
Right. So how does that impact your journey as well? Because I'm quite sure you had mentors in that.
Yeah. So my mom actually a pledged undergraduate at Tuskegee University. She's Gamma Tau, I'm Gamma Alpha. So it's that connect as well. But in doing the pledging of Delta, I read about Dr. Thelma Daley and was like, "Oh my goodness. I think that might be that piece, I might want to do that," because she was just iconic, amazing. We're reading all this stuff about her. So that really kind of planted the seed in undergraduate. But she was just the one person that was talking about something other than clinical psych or counseling psych at that point, right, because she was school, but that was the only seed that was planted. But it was so many Deltas that were in education, right? So you were meeting all these people that were in education. So it made sense. I mean every time I went to a conference as a student or even when I interviewed at the University of New Orleans, one of the professors was actually a soror. So it was you had that connect.
And one of my good friends that went through the program with me was a member of Delta Sigma Theta too. So we went through it and now Ireon Lee LeBeouf is now a PhD MD right now. So I mean, there's so many, so many Deltas along the way, jobs that I had that I connected with within the sorority, because they were there in these very obscure places I did not know about to make it feel like home. So yeah.
Well, tell me about that. So there's got to be something about the sisterhood that helps you in terms of your own journey and becoming the woman that you have become, right? For those who don't understand sorority life and what that means, can you kind of talk a little bit about how that connection really actually helps to flourish you as a human being?
So I would say that my mother was the first person, right? Because she was a member and I idolized my mom, because she was such a hard worker, and in education and she pushed education for all of us, right? So it was that. And then, pledging at Xavier, you have all these, I literally know all the black doctors, because they were either online with me or in class with me. So you know all these people, but the benefit of it is that you have all these people across the country. So every time I moved, I would just say, "Hey, can I speak to the Delta president? Or is there Delta on staff?" And they just opened the doors and kind of help you, show you the ropes and tell you the stuff that you're not really going to get in the interview. One of the great stories that I have. So I pledged that Xavier, my brother went to Howard and one, this is how the, not just the sisterhood, but the HBCU connect. So the Berkeley Black Colleges connect, he's at Howard.
One of the girls at Howard knew me. She was younger, but knew me and said, "Are you Kimberly Frazier's brother?" And he goes, "Yes." And he's like, "How do you know her?" And she goes, "I know her because..." This, this and this, and this runs down everything that I did in Delta at Xavier and helps him, because of it. So it's that kind of connect of, "Hey, if you need anything." She took him to get his clothes washed, buy groceries, that sort of thing. So it's that kind of, not just with the sisterhood, but having the sisterhood extended, because she was also a Delta too, but younger and learned about me. I did not meet her, because I was clearly PhD at that point.
So clearly y'all have really hurt the other brothers who don't have that connection, to have someone help them wash their clothes and all that other stuff.
Well, no she didn't. She was like, "I will take you to the Washateria," that was her thing, "I'll take you to the Washateria. I'm not going to wash your clothes, but I'll take you there."
No, I'm definitely [crosstalk 00:13:47] with you.
Yeah, but it was just to have to, because he was like, "I didn't," he didn't know, because he had not pledged anything at that time. So he was like, it's that deep. But this, she doesn't know me, she knows you.
That's the beauty of the connection. That's nice. That's nice. And so, these things help to shape you, because you have accountability in some regards too.
Right. Okay. And so, what's that like?
So the accountability, you always know it's there, that's something that you learn about, that's something my mother talked about. You want to be a reflection for other people in the field, other sorors in the field, I've gotten a bunch of emails, calls from other Deltas about that. And just it's overwhelming and humbling in a lot of ways, because you dream this, right? So that's your dream. But to know that other people are sharing in that dream and wanting, it's really you, because you're here, they get a piece of that. So it's not just you standing here. It's all of those people standing here. And that to me is the beauty of it. Even when I think about, so it's not just me, it's Xavier, this is a piece of Xavier, this is a piece of New Orleans, this is a piece of Delta, this is a piece of HBCU, because all of that is who I am and has made me who I... My mother's here, right?
So the funny thing is, my mother now lives in Atlanta, but the fact is we can share this. She can be like, "My daughter is this person." Although, she doesn't get the magnitude of it. She kind of goes, "Oh, that is so cute. That's sweet. So you were president of the other organization and now you're..." I was like, "But it's the big one mom." And she's like, "Oh, okay."
And she's like, "Okay." And so, then I said, "Well they put a billboard..." LSU has had this billboard up with my picture on it, congratulating me. And she was like-
"Oh, now I get how big it is." Huh?
It's not. But the funny thing is my family, so this is how my family-
They would take trips to the billboard and take pictures and send the pictures to me to be like, "Hey Kim, we're taking a picture with you."
Oh wow, nice. So you made message to this other organization. So let me just bring that in right now. So the Association for Multicultural Counseling and Development. And the only reason why I'm bringing this in, is not because you were the president of the organization, but something that happened during your presidency, which I think links to the connection of HBCU and sorority fraternity life and things along those lines. So you were the president, you were about to set forth with the AMCD banquet luncheon, I forgot what it was. We were in San Francisco and you dropped a phone call to someone. Do you want to talk about that experience? You know what I'm talking about?
I don't, what do you mean, I dropped a phone call?
The money that came to AMCD, because of-
Oh, yes. So one of my fellow classmates, Chris Stewart is a renowned attorney and I was like, "Hey Chris, can you come and speak at this luncheon, because I'm president of the Association of Multicultural Counseling and Development. And I really want you to talk about your civil rights law stuff that you do and how you got into it. I think it'd be amazing." And he was like, "Of course, not only will I do it, I will do a donation." And Chris got all his fellow law people.
Well, actually wait, let me pull you back, because he didn't tell you about the donation.
He did not. He surprised me with that.
All right, there you go okay. So let's go back to that, because that's what we do, right? So he came in, I think he told you that he would cover his own costs. He's not going to have you charge him or pay for his flight out to San Francisco and all these other things. And so, he's got up there and he spoke and then you can go.
So he gets up there and speaks. I'm just amazed that he's doing this, because again, this is Chris from campus. At this point we've gone to class together and that sort of thing. And then, he tells me that he knows Asa Hilliard's daughter, Dr. Asa Hilliard's daughter and that was the connect. And that's why he got all his friends to donate all his fellow lawyers and other friends to donate money to the association, which is amazing, because it's the HBCU connect. So me and Chris went to school together. He knows Dr. Asa Hilliard's daughter. And then, Asa Hilliard is the reason why I'm with the PhD. So it's full circle. Didn't expect it. And he did it, because he was like, "Of course, I'm going to do it. That's what you want. I'm going to do it. I'm going to speak," and very busy, this is a very busy civil rights lawyer, didn't have to do it. But I mean, that's typical. It's typical of how it works at-
But we do in the community, right? That's how we do each and other, but he surprised you. And I remember your expression. I'm not going to tell you to do it right now, but your mouth dropped, because you were sitting there in the audience, listening to this person and then he just drops all this, "We're going to give you this donation." It was huge too.
It was huge. I did not expect it, never expected it in a million years. I was just excited that he came and was willing to pay his own way just to make sure that-
[crosstalk 00:19:30] to look out for if that Kim starts name dropping people in the sorority and fraternity world in HBCU world, there might be some donations.
Now it's pressure. I don't know if I can do that for my year though. I don't know. These people are busy now.
I'm just joking. I'm joking. Let's not put that kind of pressure on you. And so, speaking of that, what are some your interests as you come into this presidency and zoom?
Well, of course mentoring, that's the thing that I did with AMCD. So I want to focus on mentoring students and new professionals, definitely want to focus on diversity initiatives and multiculturalism. And I want to work with the Anti-racism Task Force to see what initiatives can I join up with or create to help that go forward, so that we can continue that work. Wellness of course, again, I think we need it retired. We're exhausted. So thinking about, I want to do a wellness day at the ACA Conference. I also want to do again, what's your wellness to come up with tips so that people can constantly be thinking about their wellness.
With the mentoring, I want to do a mentoring summit of some sort so that we can talk about how what's the best practices and also have new professionals and graduate students kind of talk about how are they navigating school? How are they navigating the job market? What are some tips? That sort of thing that we can kind of give other graduate students that may feel like or new professionals that feel like they're on the island by themselves. So that's just some of the things you can't do a lot.
So I have an idea and you have to give me credit for it, right? What's your wellness. You should work out a deal with Peloton so that you can do a commercial.
We are already trying to do that.
You got to do [inaudible 00:21:23] shoot. Do an ACA commercial with you on a Peloton sweating it out-
Telling people what's your wellness and then bring all this-
We're trying. We'll see what happens. I think that'd be amazing to have a whole day where they just focus on self.
Yeah. A whole campaign that culminates with a whole day where people are just focused on self-care and wellness.
I think we need it. And I know I'm tired with the two years. Just the two years of everything that's happened with the police brutality and the racism, the Asian hate. I'm just, yeah. Mentally trying to-
What have you been doing again with your wellness, what have you been doing to kind of help?
Turning off the TV more? Not focusing in on what's going on. Really spending time with people, I really want to spend time with okay. Not engaging with stuff that does not serve me mentally, emotionally, and really focusing in, what do you want to do? What is it that you really want to do and how do you really want to teach, because I'm a counselor educator. So how do I want to teach my students and what do I want them to really get out of that? So that it's a give back.
That's really good. That's really cool. So you found your mentors from your walk, from having kind of step into different things, right?
And so now, and your goal has been to provide mentorship. And so, kind of tell me, how do you find your mentees and how do your mentees kind of develop themselves based on having met you?
I will say this. A lot of, I tell my mentees or I tell people who are looking for a mentor, you shouldn't say, "Hey, I want you to be my mentor." It should be more organic in the sense of you're looking for someone who is achieving something that you want to achieve or something that you want to do. And then, trying to get to really know that person in the sense of do we really click as people right? And then saying, thinking about what are my expectations? So what is my mentor's expectations? What is my expectations as a mentee? And how can we negotiate that in a way? I also say that you should have several mentors. One mentor can be really good at this and then another mentor can be really good at this. So I have a mentor that I call and talk about job stuff, but then I have another mentor that I call and talk about leadership stuff.
And then, I have another mentor that I call and talk about wellness stuff. So, you should have several, but I mean, you also need, I also tell my mentees that you need people who are going to cheerlead and root for you always, you don't need someone you're competing against, you don't need someone who thinks they're competing against you. It really has to be, they're not just cheerleading you when it great. They're cheerleading you when it's not so great. And they're not trying to impose their stuff on you, meaning they're not giving advice, because it worked for them. It's what do you want? I mean, literally, what do you want to do? Because I had people who've said, "I don't want to do counselor education. I don't want to get a PhD." And I said, "You don't have to do that. That's what I wanted to do. What do you want to do? Let's focus on what you want to do."
Gotcha. Nice. Nice, nice. And so, what kind of dreams do you have for this mentorship role that you're going to bring into ACA? What's the aspiration there? What's your hope?
I just want people to find a great mentor or mentors, right? And to come up or not come up with, but think about what are the best practices and are you practicing that? And then, take a long look at the mentors that they currently have and see are y'all doing that? Because I may need to switch up the current mentors I have to something different. So my hope is that they learn some best practices and get the mentors that they need is really what I want.
When you think about your journey and where you are and I know you must think about this, you're going to say you don't. But when you think about where you are today, when you're sitting at home and you're by yourself in your space, what do you say about your own journey and where you are and how you got there? I mean, what comes up for you Kimberly Frazier?
I think I'm just amazed by it, because in my mind, I'm this girl from New Orleans who happened to have a dream of passion and a lot of determination. Yes, I dream big, but I never thought it was going to be this big at all. But it's one of those things that I literally was with my brother at brunch last weekend and said, "Wow, look what we've accomplished. Look at all we've done."
No, let me stop you real quick, because I don't know if that is, you yell at me if you need to, I don't know if that's a Delta thing or a New Orleans thing or whatever have you, but I haven't heard very many black people say, "Brunch, out to brunch." So what's that all about? I'm joking. I'm just kidding. So anyway, you were out to brunch with your brother.
I was out to brunch with my brother. We love brunch that's our thing, we do that so that we can connect. And I was just remarking on, "Wow, look at all of the things that we've accomplished." We knew we were smart, we knew we were capable, because we had mothers who said that, but to be here, to be in this space, this time and to be that way is just amazing. And in a lot of ways, because the cards were not necessarily really stack for us to do this. The cards were, there were a lot of obstacles that were in the way that could have deterred us in many ways.
Did you ever think about that? Do you ever think about something that happened in your past, that was an obstacle that really debilitated you and that you were able to be successful with getting by?
Oh my goodness. There is so many, I mean, so many, like yes, I knew I was going to graduate from high school, but what if I didn't get in? My path would've been so different had I gone to Tuskegee versus Xavier, right? Or if I would've decided to go to Howard. I mean, those were my choices, but I decided to go to Xavier. So staying at high home was a different path in that instead of going away. Going to my PhD program, where there were obstacles every single day, there was some microaggression. I mean, people made sure that you knew that you were one of one and we don't really think you're going to make it. And I was told that. I was told you're from Xavier University of Louisiana, you're from a black school. Do you really have the wherewithal? So knowing that this is what you have to do every day and have to put on that kind of armor every day to make it through.
People were that blatant that you came from an HBCU.
Absolutely. I had a professor who, well, I had graduate students who mixed me up with Ireon, the other young lady I was with, and she was two feet taller than I was, and they were like, "Hey, we always get you guys mixed up." And I was like, "Really? How is that possible? She is 6'0" and I am 5'7". Are you serious, right now?"
Well, there you go. So the challenges of being a black female in the counselor education world. And so, that is a powerful message to be sending out. Maybe we can and talk more about that after the break. So when you are looking at how you bring others along, what's your hope? And then we'll go into break.
I hope that they understand how hard it is, but understand that it's doable. You just have to have the determination to continue forward. And I hope that I am the example of that. I want people to understand, when they're like, "How did you get here?" I want people to not look at the outcome, but you need to know the journey that got me to the outcome, not just the outcome, because there's a lot in the journey.
Right. And then there's the honesty and the vulnerability of being able to share that narrative.
As much as they can take, because some people are not able to take all of the story. You can only tell bits and pieces of the story.
Okay. So we're maybe be pick up on some of those bits and pieces after the break. So thank you, Dr. Kimberly Frazier. This has been The Voice of Counseling and we're going to take a pause for the cause and we'll be back in a few moments.
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Welcome back to The Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler and we're here today with Dr. Kimberly N. Frazier. Dr. Frazier, before the break, we were kind of talking about your journey and the things that were happening for you as you're getting excited for your new role coming very shortly, six months from now maybe, you're going to be stepping into this role. Can you kind of talk a little bit about how you see advocating for different social justice causes or how we can support our clients and what your hope for the profession is from that perspective?
I think it's important for clients to see us advocate for the profession, not just for them. And then, advocating for the profession means you have to be talking about these multicultural issues, these things that are happening, these social justice issues that are happening, you can't be silent about that. I think it's also important for you to be familiar and have knowledge about it and not just advocate and not have any knowledge you're just out there. I think it's important for as a clinician, to at least acknowledge that if you are with clients that are a part of that social justice piece, to acknowledge that and to ask them about that, this has been a rough two years. You need to acknowledge that. I think it's also important to have people at the table that are not just at the table, but are speaking at the table and speaking confidently and holding other people accountable.
I think that's the point and the problem all at the same time, like some of the challenges are, there are people who are at the table who aren't talking. You represent something at the table, but you're not inclined to talk. You don't feel empowered to talk.
I recently wrote a piece on accountability.
Would you like to hear it? Here it comes. No. So, you talked a little bit about people seeing you and sometimes they see you very one-dimensionally as, okay, you're going to be the president of the association, but don't understand that the other dimensions of you are what got you to that presidency. And so, when you think about that and you think about you said you want your mentees to understand that, "Hey, the journey wasn't always the most smoothest way to get to where I am today. So you need to understand what those challenges are going to be like. If you're looking to go into either leadership or any role that you're going to go into." That there's always going to be somebody they label them the haters or whatever have you that may come in and try to kind of thwart your efforts or do something to kind of stop you from your momentum, because...
And I don't know if it's jealousy or if it's whatever, but there's something that's happening in them that they see that they have to do something to kind of stop your efforts from moving forward, especially when you talk about social justice issues.
I think there are people out there that want to silence your voice. And what I tell my mentees is you can't be a leader and be silent in a time that people need to hear you and you have to be prepared that everybody's not going to like what you have to say, but the benefit is you're transparent and they know that you're passionate about it and whatever you say, that's what you're passionate about it. I may not agree, but at least I know that that's where you stand.
The co-conspirators need to come together and do that. And I think one of the keys that what you just said, and tell me if you feel this way as well, is that you may not always agree with what I've said, but you're open to listening to what that is. So that perhaps maybe somewhere in that we can connect and agree to disagree, but at the same time, at least respect each other enough to hear each other's side of the story?
I think there's such benefit in agreeing to disagree. And I tell people that all the time, "Tell me what you are thinking, tell me your perspective, so I at least know the perspective. I may not agree with it, but at least I can hear where you're coming from." But even if we agree to disagree, we can respect each other from the perspectives that we're bringing, that doesn't make my perspective right or your perspective wrong or vice versa. It just means we're coming at it from a different perspective. I think any leader has to be willing that you can't be an effective leader if you're not able to use your voice and say these things when it's out there, because why sit at the table? Why have the platform, if you're not going to use the platform for.
Right. And it can't be all these hidden things, right? We can't work from hidden messages, because they get misinterpreted or they get miscommunicated. And if we can be upfront and really put it on the table where the elephant's not in the room, then we can really make some things happen.
Well, I think you have to be authentic. So I tell my mentees all the time. I know that I am one of those very transparent, I'm going to say it, you're not going to wonder kind of people. That may not be you. You may have to come at it in a different way. You may not be so transparent. You may have to come at it from a different way, in the sense of, you have to say it a different way, versus me, I'm not going to really, candy coat it, I'm not going to give you a lot of, I'm just going to say this is what it is, but you have to figure out what that is for you. The other thing that I tell them is, "Are you willing to die on the hill for it, right?" So the idea is that if the person doesn't agree with you, are you willing to accept the consequence that they don't agree? And that may mean, that people are not going to like your opinion.
At the end of the day, someone's not going to like your opinion. Someone's not going to like you. I mean that's it.
Right. And most counselors love for people to love them. I mean, everybody wants to be loved, right?
But it's not possible, because there's always going to be someone who does not. And I think it's more important if I'm an advocate, that's what I've signed on to do as a counselor, to be an advocate, then I have to use my voice regardless of what the next person may think, because I'm passionate about it. I think that the benefit of what people see with me is that, she's passionate about it. If there's one thing I can tell you about Kim, she is passionate about it. She's going to tell you what she thinks about it. And you're not going to have to wonder where you stand about it, but she is also going to listen to the other perspectives to figure out, okay, maybe I'm not looking at it from a side that I need to look at it from, but again, be willing to accept those consequences. I think that the issue that that comes up is that people have a difference of opinion, but aren't willing to accept the consequences of that difference of an opinion and the ideas that that's life. Life is about consequence.
So there's a lot of people who feel as though social justice issues shouldn't be a part of counseling, that we don't do that. What's your perspective on that? What would you say to someone who doesn't see the relevance of these types of things, of a Multicultural Counseling Development Association, of a social justice agenda? What is your words for them? Because in the presidency, this is something that you're speaking to. And so, how do you bring aboard others who just don't necessarily find that to be the role of a counselor?
I would say, if you don't see social justice issues as part of the role, then you're not, not seeing part of your clients, you're not seeing part of your friends, you're not seeing part of the people that you interact with every day, because the social justice issues that you're saying that we should not speak upon, are impacting those people every day. It's as if you're saying that you don't see color, it's as if you're saying you don't see color, because those very people have to deal with it every single day. I tell my students all the time, literally, microaggressions happen every day. I have to decide which microaggression I'm going to respond to and which one I'm not, that's the social justice piece.
That's the wellness piece.
And the wellness piece. But the social justice thing is, social justice things are happening to us every day. We're just choosing which one can you give the energy to?
Yeah. I always say that, what is the point of us helping someone find their wellness and then send them back into a broken system?
And you need to be advocating to make the broken system better. It's not good enough to go into your bubble. It's not good enough for you to say, "Hey, I did my counselor job and now I'm back in my bubble," when you have people who can't do that as counselors, as clinicians, as students, as whatever role that you're doing, there are people who can't go into a bubble, there's no bubble. That's what it is.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think also, I think you brought up for me just now. When I see someone having a bad day, I can't go and say, "Hey, snap out of it," in that kind of a way, because I don't know what their journey was up until that bad day, right? And so, it's always that easy fix to say, "Oh, it'll be okay. You can get over it," whatever, whatever. But when you've been on a journey that has been nothing but roadblocks, nothing but heartache, nothing but people coming at you with microaggressions and then you are in that moment in that space, how you deescalate that is really important, right?
And I think it's important to just be honest. I had one of my mentees ask me, because we were talking about microaggressions that they were experiencing. And they said, "Well, how do you deal with it? Because if this is what I'm dealing with, then how do you deal with it?" And I said, "That's why the class multicultural counseling is important, so that you can see, this is how you figure out how your coping mechanisms are." This is why the training is important so that you can figure out what are your coping mechanisms going to be? Because it doesn't stop, it doesn't stop for me. If it's not stopping for you, it's not stopping for me. And look at all that I've accomplished. I'm still dealing with that. So I just don't, I would say, I don't think it's as I would liken it to it's like saying, "I don't see color," because you are actively saying, "It's okay for me to go in my bubble and be in my bubble," because that doesn't [crosstalk 00:41:59].
And you said, "That class," but also, I'm an advocate for making the whole program. That one class is important. That one class is important, but the whole program needs to be about it, in terms of making sure that their students understand that they're going into spaces where they need to see the whole person, they need to understand the whole narrative, understand all of the worldviews and not to the point where you know everything about everything and everybody, but so that you have the openness and the willingness to learn from the people who are sitting across from you.
Well, I mean, that's about being a globally competent, right? You're being a globally competent counselor, but the idea is that yes, the entire program should be that, but if you are the only faculty that's concerned about it, or you're the only faculty teaching about it, then how do you combat that? Then that is why the class becomes important, because you may be the only, and that's what I tell my mentees too. You may be the only person that's infusing it throughout. So be prepared to hear that, be prepared for that. Be prepared to do that in every class. You're doing it from square one in every class, because they need that.
I think that's important. And I think what I would add to that is, because you might be the only one, find the people who can support you in that effort, because you need to find people that you can kind of link arms with that will continue to sustain you as you go through it, because being the only one, hmm.
Well that's why the mentorship piece is important. That's why it's important to find a mentor and then telling people your mentor doesn't have to be stationed where you are, they probably won't be, because we're across, we're all over. So the idea's that you have to find the people that you're going to link arms with in order to [crosstalk 00:43:51] not going to be-
Especially, when you talk about that person being authentic in your life, right? They may not be sitting next door. They may be in another city. They may be in another state.
It's highly probable that it will be that way. And then finding your circle. I tell them all the time, find your circle of people that you can be yourself with that really know you, that hold you accountable, that you're going to be willing to listen to what they have to say, so it doesn't become, "Hey, I think you're saying this because this, this and this." Make that and make that circle really tight. It shouldn't be a big circle. It should be a tight circle.
A tight circle of people who are willing to tell you the truth.
Every time, no matter how much it hurts. That's what tough love is, right? That tough love is a person saying, "You know what? Oh, you might want to tone that down. Or maybe you might want to ramp that up a bit and I'm here with you. I'm here with you." And it can't be that oh, send them out there to burn.
No, they have to support you throughout. They have to be able to go, "Okay, so what do you need from me?" And do it. It can't just be, "So I'm telling you to do this, but I'm going to still be here and let me know how I can support you. And by the way, I'm going to be in the room."
I'm going to be in the room or if I'm not in the room, I'm going to be there supporting you. And if I'm not in that space, when somebody brings it up to me, I'm not going to be like, "What, she did what?" I'm going to be like, "Oh yeah, that's that's who she is."
And then to be able to agree to disagree, because they may take a stance that you may not support, but the idea is that I can respect it. I think that that's the benefit too. I mean just like people, I mean, when they're like, my students will ask me, "So do you know Dr. Butler?" I was like, "Yes, I do know Dr. Butler. We've been friends for quite some time." And they're like, "Wow." And I was like, "But he's one of those people that we can definitely a conversation. We may not agree on something. Most times we do agree, but we will hear each other and he knows..."
Be careful how you put that one out there, because we don't agree on everything.
I mean, we don't agree on everything.
I'm just messing with you. I'm just messing with you.
But, the ideas that when I say something or when you say something it's accepted. It's not like, "Why is that person saying that? I think he's saying that because of this and this." And I said, "You need that," that's what I'm saying when I talk about the circle, the circle has to be tight so that you're not questioning what the person says.
And we have to become active listeners and be able to embrace that and be willing to kind of see where we might need to tweak how we see the world and how we see different things, because I grew up in Connecticut and how my life was in the environment that I grew up in is much different than the life that you had growing up in New Orleans. And so, if I come into this thinking that it's my way or the highway, without listening to your perspective, then I am doing you a disservice in our friendship and in our ability to work together as professionals, because I'm saying she don't know what she's talking about and that's not true. You know what you know, from your lived experiences and we need to find to mend those things together so that, that moves the narrative forward.
And I think it's important to have the support, right? Regardless of whether I agree with you or disagree with you, I still support you. And I'm going to show that support actively. I'm not going to be sitting at the table silent as you have things go on. I'm going to be at the table saying, "Well, I agree with Kent." Or though we may see it from a different perspective, this is some things that I think we need to be looking at because he's the president, he said that, right? Or this is what he's doing in this particular thing and we need to support that. I mean, that's the kind of thing I think needs to happen in the sense of that you always feel that support.
And I think the other thing is being, knowing that because the bond and the circle that you have is so tight, you need to be able to have the communication, even when you're not seeing eye to eye, so that you can come back to each other and it'll be fine. It's like any relationship where sometimes, "Yay, I love you." And then other times it's like, "Arrgh! What's going on?"
[crosstalk 00:48:20] vibing, sometimes we're not.
Right. But to have the conversation, right? And to be able to go, "This is it, but I still love you anyway. And let's move forward," because I think the idea is that you have to continue to be forward in your relationship, not focused on the backwards and the things that happened in the past.
Wow. So Kim, this has been a very quick counseling hour.
I know, because sometimes you and I get on the telephone and talk and I said, "I'm going to talk to..." Sometimes I say to myself, before I even call you, I say, "I'm going to talk to Kim for about five minutes," because I got to get this in, I got to get this out. And then a whole hour and a half later, Kim and I are still on the phone and I'm like-
"I got to work on that." So anyway, so I got one last question for you and we might be more before we get to this, but what contributions do you feel that you've made to the profession that you are so proud of and that you are willing to kind of share at this moment?
I think it doing the CEUs for the Association of Multicultural Counseling Development. So they can do their own CEUs. I think the mentoring program that just been created.
[crosstalk 00:49:31] talk about the mentoring program.
Yeah. The mentoring program that's been created and keeps going and keeps having people in it. I think being able to have people see themselves reflected back is so important and so that they can see that this is possible. I think being passionate and not being afraid to sit at the table and say stuff is a contribution in itself. And so, that people can see that so that they can feel empowered. I think the other thing that I constantly remind myself is you never know who you're impacting. You never know who you're impacting or who you're touching by just sitting in the room and doing the work. I can't stress that enough to just do the work, to continue to do the work is the goal. The other stuff is extra.
I said a whole word today, Dr. Kimberly N. Frazier. And thank you for your ability to be open and honest. Thank you for taking the gifts that you have and then allowing them to kind of be out there, because it does take a special person to go into leadership and to do this work. Most people think that it's self-serving, and it's not necessarily self-serving when you are opening yourself up to trying to make a change for the greater good. If your vision is for the greater good, and you're trying to bring that narrative to the table, that's important, because of so many, many times, that's not the case. And so today, this counseling hour was dedicated to hearing the life story and some of the things of her journey, Dr. Kim Frazier, thank you so much for being part of this today.
And that's been The Voice of Counseling and I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. We'll see you next time.
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