by
Joseph Peters
| Dec 16, 2021
Announcer:
Welcome to the Voice of Counseling, presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S Kent Butler. This week's episode is Encountering Difference: Dialogue Around Intersectionality, and features Dr. Ramya Avadhanam.
Welcome to the voice of counseling from the American counseling association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler, and joining us today is Dr. Ramya Avadhanam. Dr. Avadhanam is a clinical assistant professor at the University of Florida. Rhonda is passionate about expanding research around laws and grief, especially laws and grief associated with immigration and acculturation. Her work also highlights unique needs of the South Asian American communities living in the United States. Ramya is a special member of the ACA's Cultural Encounters Task Force. And so with that, let me invite her in. Doctor Ramya Avadhanam, how are you doing today?
I'm doing well. Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me, Dr. Butler. This is such an honor and pleasure to be here and share in this space with you. And I'm excited to talk about what the Cultural Encounters Task Force is aiming to do, what we are wanting to accomplish and what we've been working on.
Exactly. Exactly. So before we even jump into that, tell me a little bit about your life and how you got to where you are today.
Sure. So, my family is from India. I was born in Mumbai, India, and we immigrated to the United States when I was six months old. So, I have been in the United States from a very, very young age. I mean, really, you can say that the United States is my primary home and I've had the privilege of being able to travel back to India every summer to spend time with my grandparents, with my family.
So, I really do consider myself to be a product of two very different cultures, but I've been able to take from what I believe is beneficial for me from both. And so, both are home. India's home and the United States is home. And needless to say, in a lot of communities, counseling is not necessarily actively seen as something positive. There's a lot of stigmas surrounding it. And so I've been very, very lucky and grateful to have a family that's open, and that's been incredibly supportive of my journey in counseling and counselor education.
And we've seen a tremendous amount of benefit in just one of us, myself, being a part of this community of counselor educators, practitioners, and supervisors. So, it's been a really powerful journey to get to where I am now as a faculty member at the University of Florida. And there's, I've noticed, a lot less stigma within my own inner circles in seeking counseling support. So, if I can create this kind of change in my inner circles, I can only imagine what can be done with those who are willing and able to sit with these conversations, and to take it into their own communities. So, I love that I found my path here. It's not something that I expected to do, but it was happenstance and I have no regrets.
Well, excellent. And you have quite a community of friends that have kind of created your, I don't know, your tribe of counselor educator friends. What was that all about? What did that look like? How did it come about, and what do they mean to you as you do your daily work?
Oh, that's a wonderful question. I'm very, very grateful that those that I have been connected to via my master's program at the University of Florida, as well as my doctoral program at the College of William & Mary, all of the peers that I connected with, whether in those programs or outside at counseling conferences, even in terms of mentorship, we all bonded over our intersectionalities.
There were pieces of our identities that felt as though they needed to be hiding, that there wasn't necessarily a space to be completely who we were in the spaces we were part of. And so we really connected on our life experiences. We were wanting to support the parts of us that didn't have as much of a voice, the parts of us that we wanted to share with those that were willing to sit with us in those spaces.
So, a lot of my colleagues, such as Dr. Christian Chan, Dr. Monica Band, Dr. Stacy Litam, Dr. John [inaudible 00:04:40] and of course those that have been connected to through them, we've all really bonded over our passion about multiculturalism, about sitting in cultural humility, about being able to have conversations around intersectionality and spirituality and gender fluidity, sexuality.
Our mission and our unified goal and purpose, individually we felt this way too, that we wanted to advocate for marginalized populations, and a lot of that came from our own experience. And so I've been very lucky over the course of my life to meet really incredible humans, where we can bond over this and then also create research and opportunities together. So, it was actually because of Dr. Monica Band that I joined the Cultural Encounters Task Force to begin with, that I wanted to become part of the whole experience. And so much of that is coming from and rooted in our own experiences as [crosstalk 00:05:43]
Did you seek each other out? How did you find each other?
So, it was at the International Association for Marriage and Family Counseling. When I had gone for doctoral interviews, I connected with Dr. Christian Chan at GW, when I was there for an interview. And we connected again a few years later while we were at IAMFC. And during that time, Dr. Chan told me that I needed to meet Dr. Band and Dr. Litam.
We were not doctors at that point. We were still students. And so it was really wonderful to meet a group of individuals that were so like-minded and that had similar values and similar passions. And it took off from there. And honestly, it's because of them that I have had every possible experience.
I became an adjunct faculty at Marymount because of Dr. Monica Band. I then went to George Mason University and taught there as adjunct because of Dr. Rita Chung. And so it was really incredible to make these connections, and these are the connections that ended up fostering my career.
I ended up at university of Florida because I am a product of this program. And I'm very passionate about marriage and family counseling and systemic work. So, it's amazing how one connection or two connections can change the trajectory of your entire life, your career. So, we just kind of connected and hung out and figured out that we were very bonded in values.
And so, my colleagues became some of my best friends and it's just wonderful because when I have a question, if I want to staff something, if there's a concern that I have, I know that I don't have to rely on my own expertise because there's danger in that. So, there's always some member checking taking place, and being able to have conversations with people who I know will hold me accountable in ways that are gentle but also necessary.
So, you brought up the word and the term intersectionality.
And you all do have a different myriad of cross sections that you have brought together. And it's different. It's unique because there's a new influx of individuals coming into our profession. And so, a lot of times people could be isolated. Did you find that being in that circle, being in that group of individuals actually also supported your scholarship and your ability to move forward with regards to staying strong to your mission? One of your passions is enculturation, so it been one of those things where they help keep you motivated to continue to do this work?
100%. There are times, and I'm sure there are many that will relate to this, that you feel imposter syndrome. It doesn't matter whether or not, I've been in the field. I've been in the field now since 2010. It's been 11 years and I still feel as though sometimes I'm showing up and I'm just kind of there. I don't know if I'm really an expert in anything. I think a part of that is because I'm constantly sitting with challenging myself and wanting to learn and push further. And my parents have always told me that, if you ever sit with and accept the fact that you're an expert in something, you're not going to challenge yourself to push forward and to continue to stay relevant.
So, I get stuck in that sometimes. And my peer groups really hold me accountable and challenge me. When I'm in my head and I think I'm not going to do well as a researcher. And that was my feeling for a long time, that I wouldn't be a competent researcher, that I wouldn't know how to do things, or I wouldn't have the energy or the mind power to be able to do so many different service pieces.
I've taken on leadership roles because they've encouraged me and been in the same space. And they reach out to me and they're like, "This could be something that really fits you and your passion in the different areas that you want to highlight in your career. Come be a part of this."
So, we've all done that for each other. We've encouraged each other in terms of awards, research, the way that we teach our students, the way that we practice as clinicians. And that's been really powerful, having that reminder of, "Yes, we have a lot to learn, but you have a lot to offer." And that's hard for me, especially. And I think so much of this is coming from a collectivistic culture to sit with, and to really challenge myself and accept.
As I remember growing up, and this is no fault of my parents, the message that they received is bragging or not even bragging, just talking about your accomplishments just equals bragging. And so, sitting in that space and growing up in that kind of a culture, it's been hard to acknowledge and advocate for the things that I do well and the spaces that I do need to grow in.
But I've been very grateful that they've all encouraged me. So we have this beautiful way of supporting, but challenging each other. And so much of that is because of the like-mindedness and the similar trajectories in terms of what we want to accomplish.
But that's very in interesting that you speak to the fact that the collectivistic culture kind of makes you want to be a part of a group as opposed to one. And so, for yourself, how was that? Channeling that and recognizing that you do have the ability to speak to your self worth and your abilities at a different level? How did you come to grips with that as an individual?
You know, that's where that friendship element comes in, where their support and their friendship, and getting to know each other in such vulnerable ways about who we are and about the bias we carry and about the experiences that are unique to us and how that drives us, that really allowed for me to sit and challenge my own perceptions of self. And being that they come from collectivistic communities as well, in some capacity or the other, and a marginalized population in one way or another, that has allowed for all of us to have this safe space to develop trust, to develop an environment in which we can sit in that vulnerability, which is the hardest part. It's hard to sit in that vulnerable space and show all of who you are, especially when you've been in some capacity in your past.
And so it was, I wouldn't say the first time, because I got very lucky at the master's level to have incredible cohort members, and same at the doc level. But in terms of identifying as an immigrant or coming from a multiethnic family, coming from an immigration story, these are all things that we were able to connect on. And that created a space where I had the ability to just let go and actually reflect and challenge.
And when I wasn't able to sit with it, they gently challenged it and kept pushing and said, "No, this is what you bring." So, it all comes down to that safety and that alliance. And when I talk to my students about things like this, I let them know that 80-90% of the work that takes place in counseling is rooted in the therapeutic alliance. That is the number one facilitator of change.
And so you can have, have all of the background knowledge, you can have the ability to have conversations, but if you're not actively engaging and getting to know someone and sitting in that space with courage and bravery and being vulnerable, it's unlikely that folks are going to be motivated to challenge themselves.
And I think that's important.
It is important because, at least for me, I've seen quite a evolution in my own development. Who I was when I was younger and the ways in which I was trying to make sense and integrate all of these different pieces, they kept clashing, and I didn't quite understand why. And I think a lot of that was this defensive wall that I would put up in not wanting to challenge, or my culture saying that we don't help seek. And so it's about finding spaces where you can break down walls.
Now, there will be some folks who don't believe it's important, who are comfort in what they're doing. And I would say that there is likely a certain advantage in them coping in that way. There was there's something that allows for them to benefit from that way of coping. But for me, there came a certain point in time where it was no longer beneficial. I was starting to feel incongruent, and I recognize it as incongruency and wanting to balance different worlds.
And cultural identity development is difficult, particularly when you're an adolescent in a host country and you're used to a particular environment and culture. So, that said, I just recognized for myself that I needed to change something. That my relationships were being impacted by my incongruence. My ability to show up and be vulnerable was just being blocked by a defensive wall. And so, I was ready.
And so, if we're talking about the motivational interviewing process and where I am in terms of change, I was at pre-contemplation for a long while and then contemplation. But it took me a while to get to that space of change. And what really made the difference for me in my personal experience is finding spaces where I was able to unapologetically and openly sit in that that space of vulnerability.
And that's not just with your peer group, but it was also with your family and your culture as well.
That's right. One such example comes to mind, and this is the beauty of being able to hold conversations or being an advocate. Advocacy comes in different forms.
It doesn't have to necessarily be something big. It doesn't have to necessarily be this grand gesture. It can be something as small as an important conversation. And within my family/friend circle, we have had substantial losses that have taken place that have been sudden, be it car accidents, cancer, heart attacks. There have been many such incidences of grief and loss that has taken place.
And so, just for some context, when we immigrated to this country, my father was connected to all of his best friends from his undergrad and college in India. And they all immigrated to similar places, in Virginia and New Jersey and California, and helped each other get jobs. And so, growing up, my holidays were celebrated with them. My vacations were with them. And so we spent a lot of time together. We lived in the same developments and there was a lot of connection in those spaces.
So, when these losses started to happen, it was really difficult because people had a difficult time holding conversations around grief and loss. I wouldn't say this is exclusive to the South Asian community. There's a lot of lack of language and discourse in terms of how we can support folks appropriately without triggering them when they go through their own grief and loss experiences. But I was very grateful that they acknowledged that I was taking the path of becoming a counselor and a counselor educator.
So, during that time, we had a pretty significant loss. It was the first one of the group. And I was able to take my knowledge, just as a master's student, and say, "I really think that there's power in grief counseling. I know it's very much against what we have been taught, in terms of help seeking, in the South Asian community. Would you be open?"
And this family was very open, very open to taking that course. And of course in the beginning, they were quite quiet about it and wanted to see what was going on. And as time continued and we had further losses in the community, it has become more normalized. Everyone now openly, in front of others, come and ask me, "Would you have a referral source, so that we can go for grief counseling? Would you mind guiding us there?"
That's because of exposure, right? And when you're not exposed to something and you see something because of something somebody told you, when you get exposed to it and see that it's not as difficult, or as harsh, or as hard to get through, you see things differently. So, you brought that to your community.
I did. I did. And it was through my own exposure to it, when I had gone through my own losses throughout the course of my life. And I sought counseling for the first time at the master's level. It was so powerful for me to take that and apply that to my own nuclear family. And the changes in conversations that we had there, the ability that we carried to have very challenging conversations prior to that about emotions, about what we needed. The relational dynamics that stem from that. That is what motivated me to share about my experience with those that I love. And they were willing and able to sit with that because it was also modeled to them. And it was something that was as shared with them.
So, in my authentic sharing, it normalized their experiences and allowed for that space to become more safe for them to trust me in that, and being a facilitator of that change. I wasn't their counselor. I simply provided referral sources, but guided them through what might happen. And they found some incredible power in that. And so, to see where we were at that point, and that was eight years ago, to now, it's wild and it's beautiful. And all it took was a couple of conversations and me just authentically saying, "This is what happens when we go through loss experiences."
You know, it's really interesting. One of the things that I came across a couple of weeks ago was the term loss in grief. And I've noticed you talk about the things that you're going through. And as you were talking, you most specifically spoke about loss. You didn't really speak about grief, you spoke about loss and what loss meant and how significant that was. That leads towards that grief. And so, I'm wondering, in your mindset, do you see loss as the significant precipitator to how individuals come to counseling? And then how they work through that loss to kind of deal with the grief? And how do you see that as a kind of approach.
I do actually see loss as a precipitator to the grief experience, and then, based off of the different environments that someone is part of, the different systems that someone is part of and the boundaries, rules, and roles that are established within those circles, that is what guides the help seeking process. So, it's very unique in the way, and I don't think I'm alone in this, I'm part of the Grief Competency Task Force through ADA. And we talk about this a lot. That there are different kinds of losses, and we don't necessarily have conversations about that.
I actually conceptualize most things as a loss that takes place. So, for example, if someone receives a diagnosis, that can be a loss of identity. That can be a loss of mobility for some. That can be a loss of what your future looks like and what you had in mind versus what it can actually look like moving forward. Immigration, to me, is a loss of potential identity, a loss of connectedness to your country of origin, a loss of connectedness to your family. And though, now, we have technology that further connects us, that wasn't the case 10 or 12 years ago. I remember, growing up, that we had to use a particular card. We only had two minutes to talk to my grandparents on the phone, whereas now, we have internet and we can WhatsApp video call and it's free.
So, it's really interesting, and I don't mean to cut you off there, but I wanted to ask you, because it's really important that we look at the fact that loss, and that dealing with that loss or that change, is significant.
And if you don't actually hang in there for a moment to actually look at what it is actually doing to a person, and to their identity. You had said something to the effect of coming here and losing a part of your identity. Can you talk to the importance of identity and talk to the importance of why someone needs to stay connect to their roots?
Sure. In my dissertation process a few years ago, I focused a lot on acculturation research with the South Asian community, and a lot of what the research had said, and I can say that it is true to my experience, to my parents' experience, is when someone immigrates from their country of origin to another host country, for those who tend to be more traditional and who feel the loss in a greater way, there tends to be a wanting to stay connected to that space.
And particularly with mothers. And I researched this because of my own mom and dad who came with me. They were 24 or 25 years old, very young, when they had me. I was six months old. A lot of what they thought in the beginning was, "Oh, we will go into this new place. We will acculturate. We will assimilate and integrate cultures."
But once my mom got here, especially, there was a tremendous push towards maintaining certain traditional patterns and rituals, such as being a vegetarian in my family, such as wanting to make sure that we wear our ethnic garb, our cultural clothes, if you will. So, my hair was done in a particular way. There was an expectation to maintain that, and to wear our cultural clothes with pride.
And what I was experiencing was very different. It was a lot of pushback about not blending and with the dominant culture. And so, the cultural identity process for me was very different than my parents. My parents wanted to maintain tradition. And because I came when I was very young and was exposed to the American school system from the age of four or five, I kept pushing back. And there was a lot of dissonance there and a lot of discord when it came to cultural values that my parents were holding and that I was wanting to hold.
And so, the identity development process is so different generation to generation. For them, they wanted to hang on to Indian culture. They wanted to continue to pass on that tradition because there was a fear of losing it. There was always a fear of losing these pieces and parts of who we are and parts of our experiences. Whereas for me, especially at that young age, if we're thinking about cognitive development as well, and just where I was in terms of the growing up process, I was pushing away from it until that dominant culture made it appropriate for me to be who I was in those spaces. So, my talent shows were the only time that I could show up as being Indian and that wasn't [crosstalk 00:25:34].
Wow. No, it's really interesting because it's funny because it sounds as though, if you allow your foundation to continue to grow that you won't lose your foundation.
But so often we are told to get rid of the foundation and try to start all over again, which that's the disassociation. That's where you start to feel as though, "Oh my God, who am I? And what am I representing?" Because how can I get rid of a part of me?
When I should be growing from what I come from.
That's right. And what's really interesting is, when I was finally able to help seek for myself, I likely should have gone to counseling when I was in undergrad, when I had lost my grandparents. My last grandparent passed away in my late twenties, but my grandmother passed away when I was 19. My other grandparent, my other grandmother, passed away when I was 16.
So, when I was in college and away from home, that's when I started to look for literature and I couldn't find any on the south Asian community and the grief and loss process. So, that is what drives a lot of what I do. And what I learned from that is just, again, how difficult it is to carry those conversations and how little support there is.
And my fear, at that point, was if I went into a counseling process where someone didn't necessarily want to learn my culture or didn't understand it, that I would feel even more isolated in my experience. So, I didn't seek help until I went to the master's level.
However, at the master's and doctoral level, I decided, "Okay, if I'm going to be a counselor, I need to know what this feels like. I think it would give me some perspective." And so, when I went through that, one of my counselors said something incredibly beautiful. He had said to me that you have been told these lies about beauty standards, about what the expectation is. My hair is curly. It took a lot for me to come in for this interview, even, and not feel as though I needed to straighten my hair. There's a lot of things that I internalized about my own beauty, from the environments that I was part of.
And I'm actively, in my adulthood now, trying to challenge that. And when he was able to sit with me and say, "These are lies that were taught to you by a dominant culture of what their expectation is for beauty, and that's something attainable for them. But a lot of minority cultures may not be able to do that. Our hair type is different. Our needs are different."
And so, I've been actively trying to challenge just ways in which I am not providing myself with grace in these spaces, and challenging what I've been taught. And figuring out what works for me.
The key that I heard you say just now is obtainable.
And if we can recognize that everything is not for everybody.
And if we can just own what we own in ourselves, who is our true selves, then we would be so much better off for it. We're so busy chasing a dream. Somebody else's dream.
Because of what someone said was the standard of beauty or whatever have you.
100%. 100%. And that really resonated with me because I started to think about, "Well, how am I identifying who I am? How am I shaping who I am? Is it truly out of what I want and how I would like to portray myself? Or is it coming from these systemic influences, in terms of what the larger systems around me are saying that I should do?" Yeah.
Wow. And so, I'm going to segue, and I think after the break, we're going to get an opportunity to talk about the Cultural Encounters Task Force.
And I think that what I would like to stem it from is that difficult dialogues that we had. You've been talking about the difficult dialogues that you had with your own family, with yourself. About how you find yourself entering into spaces because you have immigrated here to the United States. And so I want to talk with you after the break about how Cultural Encounters, that group, is helping to bring that conversation forward and what the importance of that conversation is moving forward. How does that sound?
That sounds great. I'm looking forward to it. And I love that we're able to have such an authentic and transparent conversation. I also just want to share with those who are watching, it's not the easiest, even still, for me to sit in those spaces and to share these vulnerable pieces of myself. But I try to challenge myself to do it because I think there's value in appropriate self disclosure. And my hope is that, in sharing some of my narrative, that we're able to encourage others to sit in that space, too.
Excellent. So this is the Voice of Counseling. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler. We'll be back with Dr. Ramya Avadhanam in a few moments. Thank you.
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Hotep. Welcome back. This is Kent Butler for the Voice of Counseling, and we're here with Dr. Ramya Avadhanam, and we are going to talk more now about the Cultural Encounters Task Force. And so, Ramya, maybe as a way to transition from what we were talking about to the Cultural Encounters Task Force, can you tell me a little bit about what your role is and what the Cultural Encounters Task Force is really all about?
Sure. I am an elected member of the Cultural Encounters Task Force 2.0. We started a few years ago and our main purpose and our goal and our mission is to create opportunities to help clinicians, counselors, counselor educators, in navigating difficult dialogue. And what we mean by that is conversations that are often stigmatized, that may feel difficult to carry in terms of emotion, because we really strongly believe in being able to have those conversations and the power that it holds when we're able to have them.
So, a lot of what we have been working on is based off of presentations that we would like to do at various counseling conferences. And another piece is the diagnostic manual that we're creating. And it's all rooted in wanting to have conversations and support others in having conversations that feel heavy, that feel difficult, perhaps even unapproachable in certain spaces and situations.
A lot of that is because of what we talked about earlier. We have these preconceived thoughts about what having these conversations will bring, right? And so we're told from a very early age, "You can't talk about this." Or, "You can't talk about that." So, the encounters group is really looking at trying to find ways to help people see that there is beauty in having some vulnerable conversations about the things that really affect each and every one of us.
Absolutely. And, and something that I often sit with and I'm in awe of, is when you're able to have difficult dialogue and recognize the different viewpoints in the room, the different ways in which we construct our world view, even if they're completely opposing, if we're able to have the conversation, there's power in that. There's power in being heard, even with contrasting views.
And it's interesting. I'm recognizing, the more I speak in our conversation, Dr. Butler, that I'm very much a systemic thinker. My training is marriage and family counseling. I've been speaking in internal family systems language. We're talking about the parts of who we are. But a big piece of what I sit with is just how these larger systems impact us and how we choose to approach situations because of all of these systemic influences.
So, Doctors John and Julie Gottman, in Gottman Couple's Work, they talk about the importance of being able to sit with the unresolved things. The unresolved conversations, the unresolved problems and difficulties. And what ensures greater success in connection with one another, whether it's in a relationship, whether it's in a friendship, whether it's in mentorship or with colleagues, it is the ability to sit and have these conversations. It is the ability to be able to talk to each other and hear each other's perspectives, even if there is no resolution.
And I have found, in my own clinical practice over the years, and in conversations with students over the years, as a counselor educator and supervisor, the power in that. The power in being able to sit and hold space for deferring viewpoints, even if they're opposing. And so our goal as a task force is to help guide others in being able to have that conversation. And in reassuring everyone that there is value in this, and there's a way in which you can do this.
Because I think so much of the apprehension and going into these spaces and having these conversations is not exactly knowing how to do it. How do we navigate this? How do we bring up a subject such as race, gender, inequality, inequity? How do you talk about intersectionality? There's so many different pieces in that. And so, our hope is that, in doing these presentations and coming up with this manual, that we're able to help support those that share our passion for wanting to have these conversations.
Might not have the answer to this, but what do you think was the purpose for people being told in the first place, however it came about, that we shouldn't talk about these things? That race and culture and intersectionality from all walks of life are really inappropriate to talk about in public, or ever? What do you think that comes from?
So, I'm not going to speak for anybody else, but from my own perspective, I think there's a certain protective mechanism there, a unwillingness to sit with the privilege or the advantages that we carry in being able to say that, sometimes. And I say this because there must be something. There must be something that person is benefiting from in terms of, even if it's something as simple as avoiding the discomfort of that conversation.
I think there was something that was beneficial to that person, and it was easier for them to say, "This isn't appropriate. This is not something that we're going to discuss or talk about." And oftentimes we talk about, especially with our students, I say this a lot to my students, that we're not creating safe spaces, we're creating brave spaces. And discomfort and safety are two different things.
There is often beauty in sitting in discomfort and being able to process that because so much of our growth and development comes from sitting in discomfort and processing it. Versus safety is a direct threat to a particular piece of who you are. So, discomfort doesn't necessarily mean a lack of safety. It can sometimes be a protective mechanism because we're afraid of something or we're afraid of losing something.
Yeah. And so, that protection keeps us from losing who we see ourselves to be based on what society says we are.
Yes. Well, imagine. Change is scary. And we say this to clients, we say this to students, change is scary because it's something unknown. And systemically, we talk about this all the time, maintaining homeostasis. Systems are only open when they feel as though there is a way to stabilize in the long run. And if you're feeling as though shifting a pattern in your life is going to put you in a state of imbalance, that's a scary space to sit in. That's intimidating.
And so a lot of folks tend to protect instead and create this hesitation if you will, to go into that evolution journey. But what I have seen is when you're able to carry these conversations, a lot of my clients, a lot of my students have asked, "Have you gone through your own counseling?" My answer is yes. "Do I continue to work on myself and challenge myself?" I try to, yes. Because I've seen the value. And so I want to be able to model that to those who are around me.
It's not easy and it takes a lot of work, but in my own experience, putting all that effort in the beginning facilitates such great change for me in such a positive way. And it has been such an incredible growth journey, that I would much rather do that than be closed off, be defensive and not allow for something to be even more advantageous, not just for others, but also for myself.
Yeah. It tends to be more effort in the long run otherwise. It's tough, though. It's tough because it's a lot of work. It takes a lot of intentional reflection, intentional bracketing, intentional highlighting of the ways in which we show up and how it impacts others. So, in that regard, your brain is moving in all different directions all the time, but I've just seen it being so advantageous that it's worth the risk for me.
Excellent. So, do you feel that you've arrived to yourself?
I don't think that I will ever feel as though I've arrived to myself, but I'm certainly feeling stronger and stronger about it. I do have a stronger sense of identity, the more that I put into it. And certainly I'm more comfortable with who I am now than I was years ago. And so, again, I think because of my upbringing, I don't know if I'll ever feel as though I arrived completely, but I would say that I'm in the higher percentages at this point. I feel very strongly about who I am and it's taken a long time to get to that point where I can say that I love who I am and in the entirety of how I show up.
That is important. That self love is so impactful and so important. So, the task force has been working on some things. And you talked a little bit about the manual that's coming out. Can you talk more about some of the things that you all are planning on doing?
Yes. So, what we all have done is taken pieces from our own clinical work in showing how conversations around, again, stigmatized topics, can be really powerful in terms of the change process, not just for our clients, but also for us in terms of clinical practice and how that shows up in the counseling space. So, there are case conceptualizations that we have shared from our own experiences with clients that identify as having various intersectionalities, and how we chose to navigate that and what research shows.
So, a lot of what we talk about is the integration of relational-cultural theory, multicultural counseling theories, as well as social justice and advocacy theories, and how we integrate all three when we're talking about having these difficult dialogues, and the power that it carries. It's a way, again, to provide examples, particularly for starting clinicians or those who have not necessarily been exposed to populations with varied intersectionalities. And the hope is to be able to provide just some concrete examples and some more structured ways to carry these conversations.
Yeah. I think it's also helping people who are rooted in the dominant culture recognize that they also are part of the multicultural culture, because that is really what it is. We are all a part of it. We're trying to find ways that we can find each other within it. Right?
And be our authentic selves, be vulnerable within it, without there being this separation of you're in this group, you're in that group, you're in this piece, you're in that piece. We really are seeing each other to each other's lenses.
100%. And it's going to take everybody to create this kind of change. And again, change doesn't have to be big. It can just be our participation, individually, in the spaces that we're a part of. Whether we're in clinical practice, whether we are supervisors, whether we are educators, if we are able to model and have conversations around how to do this, what this might look like, the hope is that it'll create this ripple effect. And it'll influence and empower those who are hesitating to have these conversations, and encourage them to take part in them more and more. Because there is power in that. There is positive, beautiful change in that. And this may be just me, but in my own experience, there's power in just affirming and validating each other's stories. Everyone just wants to be heard.
That's true. Right. And to talk about having cultural encounters with other individuals, to be authentic within that space, is really helping people to find one another. Not to try to throw people off and make people feel bad about who they are, but to bring who they are into the room, into that space, so that everybody can be comfortable within that. Right?
We're so busy trying to hide who we are or what we are, what we've been about or what we've been exposed to, that takes away time that we can really be with people and really enjoy each other's presence, as opposed to being caught up with all stereotypes and all these other things that are stopping us from finding each other.
100%. And I think this is why I gravitate towards, in qualitative research, the IPA. The Interpretative Phenomenological Analysis methodology encourages us, as practitioners, as the researcher, to tap into our bias, to tap a life experience because there's benefit in that. You're able to potentially find themes that others may not right. But at the same time, it's also being able to recognize when our intersectionalities, when our narratives, are creating blocks in connection with those that are across from us.
So, there's so much beauty in being able to sit with who we are and finding out ways in which we can thoughtfully manipulate that, thoughtfully utilize that to foster connection, and then to create these opportunities for change. Because again, the more safety we can create and bring into this space, the more someone knows us, the more authentically we can show up, the more likely change is to take place. So, it's really beautiful to see how one thing can kind of trickle and create this opportunity for immense growth and connection.
So, why is the cultural encounters group important and why is it relevant for right now?
That's a great question. I think this has always been present, and this is not exclusive to the United States, but there have been particular marginalized communities, the African American community, the Asian community, with Asian hate of late, though these instances are more publicly shown now, though we have the ability to see what has been taking place over the last few years, this has been prevalent throughout history. This has been going on for hundreds of years.
So, the hope is to be able to support marginalized populations, to be able to bring support and to help amplify the voices of minoritized groups and their specific needs. Because it's needed. It was always needed. I just think the awareness around the need is increasing exponentially now because we're seeing things. We have videos that we're looking at. When we're looking at, for example, George Floyd's death, and unfortunately what has taken place, it's so important to be able to hold spaces of conversation around Black lives that are being targeted, around Asian lives that are being targeted and what implications that has in terms of safety and even ability to be brave for these communities.
You know, I keep going back to the term needs, and we all have needs, and we should be willing to allow each person to come to it, to be able to deal with what it is that they need in life so that they can survive and thrive. And not even survive, because that's not even it. To thrive. We all should be able to find our purpose and our destiny. And when we don't allow that, when we deny people their humanity, we keep them from whatever that greatness is that is within them. We stop them.
We thwart that. And that's really what we want to move away from. We want to empower them to be their best selves.
Very much so. And when I conceptualize what has been taking place for centuries in this country, in terms of oppression, I think about that from a loss perspective as well. That is consistent complicated grief for minoritized populations. That is consistent complicated grief for marginalized populations. It's a lot. It's a lot to carry.
And so, it's really important for us to even remember that grief and loss is something that needs to be an ongoing conversation. It's not one difficult dialogue to have. It's a conversation to come back to because there are consistent triggers. Each new loss that takes place is going to retrigger all of the previous losses.
And so we're really looking at, and this is the beauty of this manual, is that we are looking at ways to hold conversations about not only difficult dialogue, but also the grief and loss experience of what takes place and how do we support communities. And working through that and acknowledging that's not going to be an easy task. That's not going to be one conversation. It's going to take an entire team, an entire village of support, to be able to-
And to disperse it. Not to give it to anyone else, but to get rid of it all together, so that we all can thrive in an environment that is welcoming to all individuals. There's this thought that, "Oh, you're going to get rid of it. You're going to give it to me." No, nobody should be saddled with it. We need to get rid of it all together, that we can see each other for who we are and what we bring to the table. That's the beauty of life, not to put some other oppression or marginalization on someone else.
That's not what the goal is.
Look, and I think that's something that, it comes from a fear response. It's, "How do I benefit? What's going to happen? Do I lose my privilege? Do I lose my power?"
Will I lose my privilege. Right.
Yeah. When I'm supporting and advocating for other populations. I'm sure that is a thought process that comes to mind. And my thought process in that is, this is not to take away other people's rights. It's to provide basic human rights to communities that haven't had the opportunity to have them.
Yeah. That narrative gets lost so much.
It really does. And talk about loss. We shouldn't lose that. We should really understand that what we're we really talking about doing is helping to even the playing field so that nobody has to be disrespected. Nobody has to be fearful of someone else and somebody else getting ahead. Because in the real sense, what are we getting ahead to?
So, thank you. Any last minute things that you would like to share? We're coming to the end of our counseling hour. And I'm wondering if there is something that is burning within you that you want to share with our public.
I just hope that there is something that those who are listening connected with and if they have any further questions or would like to have a discussion, I'm open to that.
That's what dialogue's all about.
Yes. And all it takes is one. It takes one difficult dialogue to create change. So, I hope that there is something or the other, that someone resonated with, so that we can continue to have these dialogues. Because there's so much that we can do with them.
Well, Dr. Avadhanam, it's been a pleasure to be here with you, to communicate with you about your passions and your thoughts about the future. Thank you for joining us today for the Voice of Counseling. We are going to take our break for the day, and thank you so much. And I wish you well moving forward. And happy holidays.
Happy holidays. Thank you so much for having me here. And I'm just grateful to be in this space. I appreciate you.
Excellent. I appreciate you. You take care.
See you all later. Have a great day.
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