Two Men Talking: Male Gender Inequity - S1E16

Announcer:
Welcome to the Voice of Counseling, presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is two men talking male gender inequity and features Dr. Michael P. Chaney.

Dr. S. Kent Butler:
Welcome to the Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler, and today joining us is Dr. Michael P Chaney. Dr. Chaney is an Associate Professor in the Department of Counseling at Oakland University. Mike is engaged in ongoing research related to LGBTQ issues intermingled with substance abuse disorder issues.

Dr. Butler:
He's involved in collaborative research projects with colleagues and students and joined us this year at ACA as a co-chair of the Gender Equity Task Force. So without any further ado, please join me in welcoming my buddy, Mike Chaney. How are you?

Dr. Michael P. Chaney:
I am doing great. How are you?

Dr. Butler:
I'm doing well. I'm doing well. So what's it like up in the Michigan region of the world today? Is it cold, chilly? What's happening?

Dr. Chaney:
We're definitely getting a little cooler. I think today it's a heat wave. It's going to be in the upper 50s.

Dr. Butler:
Oh, it's a heat wave today. All right.

Dr. Chaney:
It's a heat wave.

Dr. Butler:
One of the reasons why I don't want to go back North at all, ever.

Dr. Chaney:
It's a beautiful time of year though, because leaves are changing and colors, and-

Dr. Butler:
Well, we have cameras. That's why you have cameras. So you could send me a picture or two. So other than that, how's things? How you been?

Dr. Chaney:
I'm doing really well.
Dr. Butler:
Good, good, good.
Dr. Chaney:
Things have been really busy.
Dr. Butler:
Busy? Busy doing?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, Oakland University's back face-to-face. So after not teaching face-to-face in over a year, it sometimes feels like I'm a new professor again, in some ways. And just my research and mentoring students, and all the service activities within ACA. Just busy.
Dr. Butler:
Busy? Well, excellent. Well, we're glad to have someone like you at the forefront doing all that good work. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. What got you involved in some of the research that you're doing?
Dr. Chaney:
So, my prior clinical work really informed my scholarship. So I did all my grad work in Atlanta, at Georgia State. And when I was seeing clients down there, I was primarily working with gay and bisexual men who had substance use disorders. And I saw a lot of the men also described really compulsive sexual behaviors.
Dr. Chaney:
And back then, there wasn't a lot of discussion about sexual addiction or compulsive sex. It was still a newer construct, but the more I researched it, some of the characteristics and symptoms, I realized, "Wow, there is something called sexual compulsivity." And so really, my clients informed my scholarly agenda. And so all these years later, I'm still working on research related to SUDs among queer communities and compulsive sexuality.
Dr. Butler:
Yeah. I can see that. A lot of times, the work that gets us involved in our passion is stuff that we're touching every day and it really becomes part of our psyche, so to speak. I remember back in the day, you used to do some work on... Was it body dysmorphia?
Dr. Chaney:
So yeah, another line of research, and in some ways, I think this is related to compulsive behaviors and SUDs among queer people, particularly men who have sex with men, I do have a line of research focused on gay male body image. And some of that is muscle dysmorphia and just overall body image dissatisfaction.
Dr. Chaney:
And a lot of that stems from just... I identify as gay, and that's something I struggled with in the gay community, body image issues, and the queer community, the gay/bisexual male community is very image-focused. And unfortunately, even though I like to think I'm self aware and I'm aware of some of these systemic issues, I couldn't escape it.
Dr. Butler:
So on top of not only dealing with society's way of looking at gay males and bisexual males, you also now on top of that have this other thing that's always nagging at you as well, body image?
Dr. Chaney:
Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Butler:
That's a lot for a person to have to take on. And so mental wellness is really a issue in the gay community?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, I definitely think body image satisfaction impacts not just men in the gay community. It impacts trans communities and gender expansive communities and even lesbian communities. But what's really interesting about the body image literature is research shows that gay and bisexual men are impacted... Their body image issues are impacted in the same way that women are. So it's interesting, that intersection, we're talking about gender equity. And so there is some overlap in how queer communities experience gender-based depression in the same way that cisgender heterosexual women experience it.
Dr. Butler:
So when you think about it, what's to be learned from it? When you think about the work that you've been doing, when you think about it from the LGBTQ community, when you think about it from the cisgender community, what can be learned from that in terms of how we see each other and how we deal with our bodies, and how they have impacted our growth and our development?
Dr. Chaney:
I think the one thing I learned is we have a lot of work to do.
Dr. Butler:
We have a lot of work to do.
Dr. Chaney:
We have a lot of work to do. I think a lot of it has to do with we live in this male-dominated patriarchal system, and that just influences all aspects of our lives, including how we experience body image. So I think-
Dr. Butler:
So that's true maybe in the United States. Do you think it's true in other cultures around the world? I mean, when you say male-dominated, and I think when you say that, it also means white male-dominated. So when you say that coming from the lens of the United States, do you think this is something that's being experienced internationally as well?
Dr. Chaney:
That's a great question. And I don't necessarily have the answer to that. What I would guess is that other cultures or countries that have a strong social media influence I think would be impacted in similar ways as people in the States, because there's a lot of social media, and media really dictates how body image is experienced among people. So if other countries and cultures are influenced in the same way that we are, yeah, I definitely think...
Dr. Butler:
So, I could see where the stigma comes up there. You said though that you started doing this work when you were in your doctoral work in Atlanta. Social media wasn't necessarily as prevalent in that point in time. I'm not trying to ageism anyone right now, but what were some of the things that were a part of how it impacted individuals back then? What was that like?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, although we didn't have social media and even I'm significantly younger... I'm kidding. Even though we didn't have social media back then, particularly for gay and bisexual men, what we had were chat rooms, online chat rooms and pornography. And there's a great deal of research that shows that how men, particularly gay and bisexual men are portrayed in pornography or in images in media, it impacts how we perceive our own bodies.

Dr. Butler:
Often hyper-masculine, right?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, not just hyper-masculine, but the focus is primarily about being lean and muscular. So what's really interesting is that the queer community is very youth-focused. And so the gay male ideal is to look young and to be muscular, but to be lean.
Dr. Chaney:
And that's a really hard aesthetic to maintain. And then that same aesthetic may not apply to a lot of heterosexual men, but when you look at images in media or social media, or even in pornography, most of the men have these body ideals where they're lean, muscular, V-shaped backs. And it takes as a little as three seconds for somebody's body perception to be altered just by viewing an image after a few seconds.
Dr. Butler:
Well, go there. Dig that. Unpack that a little bit. You said three seconds? What is that all about?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, I think it just reflects the power of image and that we're that influenced by what we see.
Dr. Butler:
What we see, wow.
Dr. Chaney:
And we start comparing. I think there's a comparison aspect to it. When we see something, it just takes a few seconds where we're comparing, "Oh, I don't look like that. I'm not that hairless. Look at their pet." And then we start... that internal critic kicks in and then we start [crosstalk 00:10:27]-
Dr. Butler:
You bring up that it's very youth-oriented. So is there a lot of ageism that goes on in the gay community?
Dr. Chaney:
Yes. There is a lot of ageism in the queer community and in the trans community, in the lesbian community.
Dr. Butler:
And what does that look like? What typically happens when people are using age against a person? What does that look like in the community?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, I think Paula [inaudible 00:10:56] talks about how it's not uncommon for individuals who are oppressed to engage in oppression of others and what that looks like in the gay community is I think as the LGBTQ+ community starts aging, they start becoming more invisible. I think it mirrors what happens in the larger population.
Dr. Chaney:
We live in an ageist culture anyway. It's just exacerbated in the queer community. So there's invisibility, rejection, it's just a very youth-focused community.
Dr. Butler:
Right. And so that leads to some mental wellness issues, I would assume, like depression. Is there a high rate of suicidality?
Dr. Chaney:
In the older LGBTQ community?
Dr. Butler:
Or in the community at all? You said oppression is oppression, so.
Dr. Chaney:
Well, that's an interesting discussion because yes, the rates of suicidal ideation and attempts are higher among queer people than heterosexuals. It's particularly salient when we look at young LGBT individuals.
Dr. Butler:
Okay, so that almost makes me feel like that person who has gotten some stature in age is a little bit more... I don't know if it's adaptive or acculturated, or feels a little bit stronger in their own self identity, maybe that's probably the best way to do it. They sound better. They feel better in their self identity, that they are not as likely to commit... or not commit, but to die by suicide?
Dr. Chaney:
I think as we age, I think the queer community develops coping strategies and we're a very resilient community, just based on growing up in an oppressive, heterosexist, transphobic culture. And I think young people don't necessarily have those coping skills yet.
Dr. Chaney:
At the same time, younger LGBTQ+ youth, they experience a lot of bullying in the schools. Whereas older adults, the bullying, although yes, there are within the queer community, they experience violence and things like that. It's a different type of bullying and we've developed coping skills over the years.
Dr. Butler:
That makes sense. Now, you made me think of something just now when you said that, because when you're in school as a youth, you can't escape being around people. But as you age and you start to find your life, you can stay away from people. Depending on the type of job that you have, and the community that you move to, you don't have to be involved with day-to-day. And I call continuous traumatic stress, that you have on a day-to-day basis, when you have to go through a schooling experience where you're surrounded by kids who can sometimes be mean and/or bullies.
Dr. Chaney:
And it's not just the kids. It's teachers. It's parents who perpetuate that. I'm thinking back to-
Dr. Butler:
They're getting it from very many angles.
Dr. Chaney:
From all angles. Can I give you a personal example?
Dr. Butler:
Sure.
Dr. Chaney:
I knew from a very young age that I was gay and I was bullied as soon as I started going to school, and so I was getting bullied at school all the time. And there was one instance where a kid was chasing me home, calling me "Faggot, sissy," things like that.
Dr. Chaney:
I was probably seven or eight years old. I was riding my bike home. He was chasing me. I was trying to get there as fast as I could. I got home, he started beating me up in my front yard. I was on the ground, just taking the kicks and punches and hearing this barrage of, "Sissy, faggot." And my parents were at their front door, not protecting me, but they were yelling at me, "Get up. Don't be a sissy. Don't be gay. Get up and fight." So I was getting it from all angles and not to make this about me, but I think that is what happens with many young LGBTQ youth.
Dr. Butler:
So, you think about it from the point of view that if you're not getting the support from a family member or a caregiver, and then that leads to you feeling isolated. That means that any host of things could happen, you can run away, you can consider harming yourself, you can... so many different things that would come up.
Dr. Butler:
So, I don't want to make it about you and you don't have to go there if you don't want to, but can you talk about how you got through all this?
Dr. Chaney:
That's a great question. I have no idea. You know what? I do know. So in middle school, I had a school counselor that I would go to every morning. I was a very fearful kid, just because of the bullying. I hated going to school. I would try to find reasons not to, but every morning, I would go talk to the school counselor and not about being gay or anything like that.
Dr. Chaney:
But she was safe. She provided the safe space, so she was one source that got me through it. The rest, I don't know. I don't know how I got through it. I'm lucky.
Dr. Butler:
It's almost like you say, you go to see her every morning and it gave you the wherewithal, the energy to get through the day.
Dr. Chaney:
I guess it gave me some source of strength.
Dr. Butler:
Some solace?
Dr. Chaney:
It just was a safe space. For a few minutes in a day where I wasn't picked on, and I was just accepted and I felt safe.
Dr. Butler:
So was there ever a time, you make me curious now when you say that, that you're going through this whole day feeling unsafe. Outside of that experience, were there other times when you felt safe? I mean, and what is that like to not ever feel safe?
Dr. Chaney:
That's a great question. This is starting to feel like therapy.
Dr. Butler:
Uh-oh!
Dr. Chaney:
I think throughout my life, there were people who were protective factors. And I think when we talk about LGBTQ youth and we talk about resiliency, I think yes, there are all these risk factors that contribute to negative mental health and impact mental health in negative ways. But I think ascounselors, when we can work with our clients to help them find protective factors, people who are sources of support, people who can make them feel safe, it makes a difference. And so, yeah, there are people I can think of throughout my life who made me feel safe and with whom I was able to be myself.
Dr. Butler:
Good. Good, good. So you became resilient?
Dr. Chaney:
I had to.
Dr. Butler:
You fought through it, had to you say?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, I think anybody who's experienced... Any cultural group, who has experienced some form of oppression or marginalization, you have to find ways to be resilient.
Dr. Butler:
You have to find ways to get through.
Dr. Chaney:
Right.
Dr. Butler:
So, I asked that question as a teaser to you got through this, you become very resilient. And now as a professor, as a doctor with a PhD, you have now been able to go in and get the better of it. And to start doing research in the area and to define your strength in terms of how you see yourself and how you see the world, so there's a lot that of good that has come out of the dismay, so to speak.
Dr. Butler:
Can you talk now about that resilience and what that looks like for you? How that feels for you now, that you know that you've been accomplished?
Dr. Chaney:
I think a lot of people in our field who go into the helping professions go into this profession due to our personal experiences. I remember as a young person in high school wanting to go into a field where I would help younger people not to feel like I felt.
Dr. Butler:
Like you were feeling.
Dr. Chaney:
And I distinctly remember thinking that throughout high school, and so that definitely influenced my trajectory. But education wasn't something that was valued in my family. So I wasn't really sure how to get there.
Dr. Butler:
So was your degrees in the helping field, or did you... For me, I wasn't thinking about the helping fields in my undergraduate years, but it became more apparent as I got into my Master's and of course, my PhD. Were you always driven to be in the mental health field?
Dr. Chaney:
Always. I didn't start school until I was older. I didn't start my undergrad until I was about 23, because like I said, education wasn't valued in my family. We talk about gender equity, I think the expectation... I grew up in a suburb in Cleveland, and the expectation was I was going to grow up, get married, have kids and stay in the area.
Dr. Chaney:
So I didn't start undergrad until I was 23. And I majored in psychology. And I went into Ohio State knowing that that's what I wanted to do. I did not know I would get a Master's degree or a doctorate. My intent was to get my Bachelor's degree and just stop.
Dr. Butler:
And to stop? And your thought was that you would just maybe do some community service work? What were you hoping to do with a psychology degree?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, you got to understand. So I was the first kid in my family of any generation on either side of my family to have a degree beyond a high school diploma. So in my eyes, getting the Bachelor's degree, that was incredible. And so I thought I could do all these great things with a Bachelor's degree in psychology.
Dr. Chaney:
And I did, I ended up getting a job at a drug treatment facility for African American men that taught African philosophies for sobriety rather than the 12 step model. But then I realized, "Oh, wait, I don't know what I'm doing."
Dr. Butler:
"I don't know what I'm doing. Let me go back and get some more education under my belt."
Dr. Chaney:
I was the only white person at this facility. So I mean, we talk about cultural incompetence, I was providing counseling.
Dr. Butler:
You were hurting my brothers and sisters, man?
Dr. Chaney:
I was trying to be helpful.
Dr. Butler:
So listen, when you look now at where you are, and in terms of how your family valued education, where are they now, now that they've seen you, Dr. Michael P. Chaney? What's the education like now in your family heritage?
Dr. Chaney:
I believe my family's very proud of what I've achieved. And I have cousins and extended family members who have since earned degrees, but in my immediate family, I'm still the only one who...
Dr. Butler:
Yeah. I'm lock step with you in terms of that. For a good chunk of years, I was the only one in my family on my mother and father's side with a PhD. That's changing now as time goes by, but I've now had my PhD close to 20 years. So talk about I'm getting older, so that's great that, that you have been able to find solace in the career to find yourself and to find peace, I would assume, in who you are as an individual. How often now are you affected by things that have happened in your past, or have you now found another way to circumvent that?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, I've definitely moved on beyond those experiences, and they shape and inform who I am. But yeah, I've moved on from that. Well, that's not true. We talk about internalized shame, internalized racism, internalized heterosexism. So some of that still plays out, particularly in how I interact with men, heterosexual men specifically. And there is a lot of internalized heterosexism that still pops up in those interactions.

Dr. Butler:
Did you find yourself doing things to help make light of situations? Not light of situations, but to a point where you're doing it to make sure that people are comfortable and that they're accepting? Now, when I ask that question, I'm wondering if it's fair, if it's fair that you have to act differently around different individuals to help make the situation more... I guess, Kosher or appealing or whatever?
Dr. Chaney:
Yeah. That's a good question. Is it fair? It's probably not, but I try to be aware and I think the way it manifests with me is not that I alter my behavior. I don't try to be hyper-masculine or... I'm very comfortable with who I am. But there may be an avoidance piece when I'm interacting with particularly heterosexual men.
Dr. Chaney:
When we first met, you and I are just so different, a heterosexual man of color, and here's a white gay guy. And I remember when we first met, I was intimidated by you, not-
Dr. Butler:
You didn't act like it. I think you ran up on me and I was sitting on the couch in the lounge at a conference and you just accosted me talking about something. I don't remember.
Dr. Chaney:
That is not true. That is not true.
Dr. Butler:
So do you remember the exact time when we first met? You keep saying that, but when did we first meet?
Dr. Chaney:
I don't remember the exact time, but it was many years ago. It was at a conference. And I just remember you coming up to me, introducing me, and I think we were talking about some of my research. We were in a lobby at one of the conferences. And I was just intimidated by you, not because you're a man of color, but just...
Dr. Butler:
6'4" Black guy talking to you with a deep voice. You were probably like, "What in the world's going on here?"
Dr. Chaney:
No, I think it's that internalized heterosexism, just for a lot of gay/bisexual men, we grow up in this idea of... We're socialized to be a certain way. We're socialized to be men within a certain box. And so when we step outside of that, we get pathologized for that, and we internalize that. And so when I was interacting with you that first time, it was just intimidating.
Dr. Butler:
Wow. You know what's really funny? I used to get that in my evaluations early on. I don't know how they would change now in the classroom. I haven't been taught in a minute, but when I first started teaching, white women used to always put into my evaluations that I was intimidating.
Dr. Butler:
And I was like, "I'm a counselor. How am I intimidating? What's going on here?" But I think a lot plays into it. So stereotypes play into it as well as I think, maybe how I have to navigate... because when I asked you that question about making people feel comfortable, there's a time when I still have to do that to help people feel comfortable. And on top of that, I'm introverted. So I'm introverted and I'm trying to make small talk to help somebody feel comfortable in my presence. It's daunting.
Dr. Chaney:
You have to be the most extroverted introvert I've ever met.
Dr. Butler:
People say that, but I like my downtime. I really, really truly do. So listen, we've talked for quite a bit right now. We were really talking a lot about you and your personal experiences, but I want to move towards our break right now. And then when we come back out of the break, I want to talk about the task force that you're a part of, and some of the things that are coming down the line for the Gender Equity Task Force. That sound good?
Dr. Chaney:
That's great.
Dr. Butler:
All right. Well, thank you. This is Ken Butler, you're listening to The Voice of Counseling put on by the American Counseling Association, and we'll be back in a few minutes.
Narrator:
Counselors help positively impact lives by providing support, wellness, treatment. We're working to change lives. We are creating a world where every person has access to the quality professional counseling and mental health services needed to thrive.
Dr. Butler:
Welcome back to The Voice of Counseling. We are joined by Dr. Michael P. Chaney, who is sharing with us some of the work that he's doing around gender equity. And he is a co-chair of the Gender Equity Task Force that I put forward this year out of the American Counseling Association. So Mike, what's it been like being a part of this Gender Equity Task Force?
Dr. Chaney:
It's been incredible. I am loving working with Dr. Mary Herman. I've never met her before. I've read her work, and so when I first met her at the first meeting, I was fan girling a little bit, and I'm just very impressed. And I'm very humbled to work with her and everybody else on the committee.
Dr. Butler:
Yes. Cool. I mean, there are some incredible people in our field. They're doing some excellent work, and so I can see where you could be in a state of awe when you're around certain individuals. But one of the things I find is most of them are like, "Look, I'm just a regular person just doing this work."
Dr. Chaney:
Exactly.
Dr. Butler:
And so that's the thing that is so cool about the whole thing. So in a real sense, can you talk a little bit about how does gender equity issues impact boys and men?
Dr. Chaney:
I think one, we tend not to think about how gender inequity issues would impact men. But when we look at how young boys and men are socialized, it's pretty salient. We're socialized to restrict and suppress emotions.
Dr. Chaney:
We are socialized to be very independent and achievement-oriented. We are socialized to avoid anything feminine or anything associated with being gay.
Dr. Butler:
But when you say "we", can you describe we? Who is this we?
Dr. Chaney:
I'm speaking about men in general. Young men and boys.
Dr. Butler:
Across the board, men?
Dr. Chaney:
Well-
Dr. Butler:
Because as you were talking, when you were saying socialized, I was thinking about it in terms of how we have been socialized, but we've been socialized by a white male identity. Right?
Dr. Chaney:
Absolutely. It's impossible not to talk about this from an intersectional perspective, but yes, I think men in the general population have been socialized from a white male [crosstalk 00:32:44].
Dr. Butler:
So how does that impact the gender equity issues for boys and men?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, I would love to throw that question to you. How has you being socialized in this white male paradigm, how has that impacted you?
Dr. Butler:
It's impacted me a lot, in terms of my own development and growth, because I've always been having to prove myself to be able to... Even getting to the point where I become President of the American Counseling Association, I had to prove myself in order to get there. As well when I look at my counterparts, most of the time when they're going through, there seems to be... And again, it's perception. It's not necessarily maybe a truth, but the perception is they have a much easier ride. Much easier way of going about it.
Dr. Butler:
And so while I'm dealing with what you talked about, I have all these things I have to deal with underneath the scenes that pick time and energy away from when I see other people just seeming to glide right in, if that makes sense.
Dr. Chaney:
No, it makes sense. I mean, I'm hearing that there is some overlap in how different male cultural groups are socialized, but there are also very distinct cultural factors that influence how men of color are socialized versus white men.
Dr. Butler:
So all my life, I've been told that I matter, I belong, I have every right, I can move forward. That's coming from my family, that I can do all this. Then I go into a community or go into other spaces where that's not a reality.
Dr. Butler:
So it's like, "Wait a minute, you told me I can do this. But then I come here and they're like poof, ceiling.
Dr. Chaney:
Yeah. I think another area where gender equity matters to men is how masculinity is conceptualized and how are we supposed to be masculine as white men or as a man of color? I think there are differences.
Dr. Butler:
Yeah. Well, yeah. Especially as a man of color, because of my size and because of other things, it's like all of a sudden, there's this, "Oh, you're expected to be stocky. You're expected to be a great person at sports. You're expected to be this and be that." And there's all these things that are over you, these stereotypes that you have to either live up to, or try to debunk.
Dr. Chaney:
Yeah. And I think we tend not to think about this, but another way gender equity impacts men is exactly what you're talking about. I think for a lot of young boys and men, there's trauma associated with being raised in this culture where we're told we have to achieve. Because if we step outside of that box of what it means to be a man, then we're referred to with these pejorative girl names or gay names.
Dr. Chaney:
"You're a fag," or "You're a sissy," and that could be traumatic, but it also impacts men because it limits how men are able to express affection between each other, because a lot of men are afraid of being perceived gay. So how we interact with each other as men is strongly impacted by this sexist, patriarchal culture that we live in.
Dr. Butler:
Yeah. But it's really funny, because you said that just now and I just thought about it. In the sports world, I could smack you on the butt, but it's got to be a certain way I smack you on the butt. But if I was just walking down the street and smack you on the butt, oh, hold up. There's something totally different. Right?
Dr. Chaney:
It's funny that you even brought that up, because before I got on this call, I was thinking that same example. If we were on a baseball team and you got a home run, I patted you on the butt, no big deal. But at the conference, after you give your keynote, if I patted you on the butt, that-
Dr. Butler:
You better not be coming up on nobody, smacking them on the butt. [inaudible 00:36:59] we're making jokes right now. This is nothing to do with sexual harassment or anything above those lines. This is just more of a comedic way of looking at how we as men interact.
Dr. Chaney:
Yeah. No-
Dr. Butler:
Just to put that out there.
Dr. Chaney:
Well, no, I don't think we're making fun of...
Dr. Butler:
Right.
Dr. Chaney:
But I also think maybe what just happened between us, our laughing is part of how we're socialized because men get... not all. I think men have a really difficult time talking about some of these things without adding humor to it.
Dr. Butler:
Right, right. It makes a lot of sense.
Dr. Chaney:
It's like a defense mechanism.
Dr. Butler:
So why should men care about gender equity issues?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, for the exact reasons that we're talking about, because there are multiple definitions of masculinity and when we only look at masculinity from this one perspective, we limit men's ability to express themselves in authentic ways.
Dr. Butler:
Well, let me ask you a question. Seriously, let me ask you a question. Can heterosexual men be closeted?
Dr. Chaney:
Can heterosexual men be closeted? So I'll answer that question, but I have a follow up question. Closeted from what? What would they be concealing?
Dr. Butler:
So when they are enjoying something that they would say, "Oh, I would be perceived as this if I enjoyed it." I think of about it in terms of having a kid and watching toys, or I have a daughter and I'm sitting in a room playing with a doll with her and not having conniptions because I'm doing that. So a lot of times, we've been socialized that men don't play with dolls, men don't cry, men don't do this, men don't do that.
Dr. Butler:
And there's been situations when I'm sitting there, I've watched a sad movie and I see a tear coming down. So those things, can heterosexual men be closeted?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, as a gay man, I struggle with that term closeted because I do associate that with concealment of sexual identity.
Dr. Butler:
Right, right.
Dr. Chaney:
But that's not what you're talking about.
Dr. Butler:
Right.
Dr. Chaney:
But what I hear you talking about, yes. I absolutely think that what I'm hearing is you're talking about shame.
Dr. Butler:
Shame.
Dr. Chaney:
Shame is associated with expressing emotions. And that goes back to what we were just talking about, that as young boys and men, we are conditioned not to express emotions, that it's a sign of weakness. It's associated with being a woman, and it's not okay in our culture to be a woman. It's not okay for a man to appear weak or vulnerable. So in that way, are men uncomfortable being vulnerable and expressing emotion? Absolutely.
Dr. Butler:
You put better words to it than I did, but I appreciate that. That's why we work off of each other, so that's pretty cool. So I appreciate that, I really do, because I learned something today in terms of that, because language matters. It also matters.
Dr. Chaney:
Language does matter. Language can be associated with oppression, and it's very structured when we use language in an oppressive way. It's not random.
Dr. Butler:
Right, right, right. So couple more questions for you before we have to end for today. What are the current gender equity issues that you see, or you have been experiencing in the LGBTQ community?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, I think there are many, and I think that could be an entire...
Dr. Butler:
Podcast?
Dr. Chaney:
... podcast for you. And I would actually encourage you to invite some of the other taskforce members like Mickey White and Susie Wise, because I think they would add a really informative...
Dr. Butler:
Yeah, you're right. And I think we can do that. I mean, one of the things we are dealing with is whether or not we can have multiple guests at one time, what that might look like.
Dr. Chaney:
Right.
Dr. Butler:
But I think that that would be a really a rich conversation to have around that. So thank you for bringing that up and maybe we'll embark upon that moving forward.
Dr. Chaney:
But I can answer, and I'm going to specifically focus on the transgender community because the truth is, any type of oppression, LGBTQ-related oppression or discrimination, it really is rooted in gender inequality, because it's all measured against this patriarchal system that we live in.
Dr. Chaney:
But there are specific things that are impacting the trans, non-binary, gender expansive
communities, like violence and bullying in the schools, getting appropriate gender markers placed on documentation. Depending on what state you live in, it's very challenging for trans, non-binary, gender expansive people to have their identities reflected in documents. And it's also-
Dr. Butler:
Go ahead. Go ahead.
Dr. Chaney:
It's also an invasion of privacy because depending on what state you live in, sometimes, individuals need documentation that they're going through some type of transition and there's a gate keeping process associated with that. But for cisgender, we don't have to do that. When heterosexual, cisgender people get married, all they have to do is fill out a form, change their name. But that's not the same for trans folks.
Dr. Butler:
Exactly right. So, I was thinking just now, as you were talking, has there been movement? And when I ask that question, I'm talking about... and I don't like the term so much role models, but there are people now who have identified themselves in ways that have not always been acceptable in the American society. Has that helped change the narrative, you think?
Dr. Butler:
So when you see individuals who are championing causes or who are standing up in their self, they're saying, "This is who I am," has that been beneficial?
Dr. Chaney:
Can you rephrase your question?
Dr. Butler:
So I'm thinking about folks like... Oh, God, I'm not going to get it right. But Ellen Page? Is it Ellen Page?
Dr. Chaney:
Elliot Page.
Dr. Butler:
Elliot now. And you know, Laverne Cox, even as familiar with folks as Caitlyn Jenner, these individuals, have they helped to change the talking points and the way that   world is seeing the transgender community?
Dr. Chaney:
So my response and I want to preface what I'm about to say, it's definitely going to come from a white gay male cisgender perspective. You may ask somebody else who represents the trans community and they may have a different response. So I think greater visibility is really important. And I think some of these celebrities who are coming out as trans, I think it does make a difference.
Dr. Chaney:
However, we talk about intersectionality. I mean, there's a lot of white privilege with some of these, and class privilege associated with some of these celebrities who are coming out as trans. And their experiences may not reflect young trans women of color or... So there is a lot of privilege with some of these celebrities coming out. They have access to resources that trans people in the general population may not have access to.
Dr. Butler:
May not have. Right, right. So [crosstalk 00:45:56] that goes back to the wealth disparities that we have in the world. And so the more you have economic status, the better your conditions are in the world?
Dr. Chaney:
Yeah. So again, yes. I think visibility is really important. Especially-
Dr. Butler:
I guess my question really was, has it helped to change the narrative or is it still a lot of... There's a lot of negativity and hatred that's out there. Do you see a shift in how people are actually willing and able to come to this conversation?
Dr. Chaney:
I think greater visibility changes some people's attitudes, but I also think greater visibility riles other people up, and may exacerbate-
Dr. Butler:
Oh, yeah. We're seeing that all over the place right now.
Dr. Chaney:
... trans [crosstalk 00:46:48]. Exactly. Because it challenges the status quo, and it challenges people from a dominant culture, it challenges some of their loss of power.

Dr. Butler:
Okay. Makes a lot of sense. Thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for your openness and being willing to talk about this. I got one last question for you, and then we're going to get close to the end of our time together. How does gender inequity impact the wellbeing of people who identify as LGBTQ+?
Dr. Chaney:
Well, I think it impacts mental health, for sure, impacts mental wellness. When we look at rates of for example, substance use disorders, not just among queer people, but also among men, the rates of SUDs among men are significantly higher than among women. The rates of substance use disorders among the queer community are significantly higher than the heterosexual population.
Dr. Butler:
Even in 2021?
Dr. Chaney:
Even in 2021. And I think some of that can be attributed to living in a sexist and heterosexist, transphobic society. How do people cope? Some people may use substances to cope. When we look at violence, anti-trans violence, it's particularly among trans women of color. It's ridiculously high, that's a gender equity issue.
Dr. Butler:
So gender equity issue, and it's also an issue that's not very well-publicized. Because people start to think-
Dr. Chaney:
It's not.
Dr. Butler:
... and use it as, "Well, I'm not hearing anything about it, so it must not be happening."
Dr. Chaney:
Exactly. And it's happening more than people think. And the thing is, it's often under-reported, because trans people, queer people, they're afraid to go to the police to report these things because a lot of times, the police will just retraumatize.
Dr. Butler:
Retraumatize the situation.
Dr. Chaney:
Yeah.
Dr. Butler:
Wow.
Dr. Chaney:
And I'm not police hating. This is what research shows.
Dr. Butler:
Research, and that's the other thing. And so that's the great thing about having difficult dialogues, is that when you come to the table with research, it's hard to dispute that. We can sit there and we can talk about, "This happened and that happened." But when we bring you actual data that showcases that these things are happening, then we need to really be able to sit and talk about that and bring it to the table in a way that can be at least identified and worked on, and given space.
Dr. Butler:
When we deny it, then we don't have the opportunity to really get to the heart of the matter. And so, Michael P. Chaney, thank you for this counseling hour. I really appreciate you coming in and having your expertise at the table, and you sharing your knowledge with our counseling community. Any last minute words before we check out?
Dr. Chaney:
I just appreciate you and what you're doing and you keep doing what you're doing.
Dr. Butler:
Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate it. This has been The Voice of Counseling. I'm Kent Butler. This is the American Counseling Association, please go and enjoy the rest of your day and we'll see you next time.
Announcer:
ACA provides these podcasts solely for informational and educational purposes. Opinions expressed in these podcasts do not necessarily reflect the view of ACA. ACA is not responsible for the consequences of any decisions or actions taken in reliance upon or as a result of the information and resources provided in this program. This program is copyright 2021 by the American Counseling Association, all rights reserved.