Female Voiceover: Welcome to the Voice of Counseling presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is titled Counseling Women Trailblazers part two, and it features, Dr. Thelma Daley.
Dr. S. Kent Butler: Welcome to the Voice of Counseling from American Counseling Association. My name is Dr. S. Kent Butler. Joining me today is Dr. Thelma Daley. Thelma is a social activist, a counselor, and a past president of the American Counseling Association. Today, we're exploring Counseling Women Trailblazers, and Dr. Daley, without question, one of the earliest and finest counseling women trailblazers that we know. I want to welcome you. How are you today, Dr. Daley?
Dr. Thelma Daley: Well, Mr. President, I am just fine. How are you?
Dr. Butler: I'm living a pretty interesting life right now dealing with the first month of this presidency and dealing with just how life has kinda rolled itself out but I'm having fun. We are having the opportunity to tape these podcasts, these vodcasts, to share with the counseling community all the greatness that there is. One of the things that I've always been really excited about in going to conferences and being there and watching people was to see you and get to know you, and to get my hug, and so--
Dr. Daley: I'll send you a social distance hug. This body [unintelligible 00:01:43].
Dr. Butler: A social distance hug.
Dr. Daley: You know we do this?
Dr. Daley: Yes, we do that.
Dr. Butler: Yes, yes, yes.
Dr. Daley: We do that. We do that.
Dr. Butler: No worries at all. How--
Dr. Daley: Wait a minute, I have a question for you. How does it feel to be the president of the largest counseling association in the whole world?
Dr. Butler: You know, I didn't think about it until maybe the day before it was all to be. I realized, I think I was sitting around, and I was like, "Wow, you are the president of the American Counseling Association." I think that now I just take it in stride because it's just about getting the work done and I try not to let it go any further than that. I just wanted to be, the work that I'd been doing all along, now in a different position.
I'm trying to use my voice better and use my voice more. I'm trying to, hopefully, inspire those who I'm working with, especially those on the governing council and those who I have immediate access to in this role to kinda help change some things. My monicker, what I'm thinking I'm looking to do this year is to shake it up a bit and really help to tap some other people into leadership. I feel as though, especially for African-American males, this is the second person in this seat since 20 years ago when Dr. Courtland Lee was here. I'm looking to make some changes in that as well to help my brothers and sisters across the counseling community be a part of what we're doing here and to have a voice at the table.
Dr. Daley: That's great. That's wonderful. That's great, yes. I love my association and I love the counseling field. I just think it's so wonderful. I think it undergirds so many other professions. There are so many wonderful people in the field really. It's so great when you're around all of the counselors.
Dr. Butler: One of the things that you are known for is your mentorship. You have done some phenomenal things with regards to when you meet people. When people come to you and they ask you questions, especially at conferences and things, you always are free-flowing and giving up yourself. What's that all about? What is it about your nature in terms of giving back to younger people coming forward?
Dr. Daley: No, no, you're telling me some things I don't know. It's just Thelma. It's just plain me. I always tell people, "I'm very candid. What you see is what you get." Whatever that authentic bone is or whatever it is there, I don't change that much or whatever. I enjoy teaching or sharing. I think that unless you share what you have, what good is it, so my whole philosophy is sharing. You know, my long-term job was really working in Baltimore County schools where I directed the counseling program for 150 schools. Baltimore County is the horseshoe around the city.
Dr. Daley: They felt we had the best counseling service in the whole country. That's the feeling. I think if you talk to some of those counselors that I stay in contact with them, they feel, "They had the best. They had the best. They had the best." That was the feeling that they had because they were the best. They were the best. Okay, so whatever. I think in terms of my loyal students, they were the best. Some of them are out there, and then some of them have been on the board for ACA, but you didn't want me to say that. You wanted me to say something else. What is it?
Dr. Butler: No, no, no. I mean, I'd want to tap into all of that. How you got started in the field and so that's beautiful. You started off in the schools and doing that work. How did you find the leader within you during all of that?
Dr. Daley: I don't know how I found the leader. I can go back to elementary school and I think that I was always-- I can remember in elementary school, particularly in grades, maybe four and five, before we really have the middle schools because we used to go from elementary school on into-- Now, it's junior high school but not the middle school like that. I know, I was always the one with a new poem on at the end of the week and could recite a poem, or-- Not maybe the first to raise your hand but maybe the second to raise her hand because I didn't want to stick out there. I don't know what-- I guess it came from my parents and my grandparents. I guess that was a part of it.
In the counseling field, I've been in the counseling field, I would say, all my life because I finished college at age 19 and went right on for my master's program at New York University in the field of counseling. I loved the field counseling. Let's say, for the American Counseling Association, from the time I joined the association, which seems like eons ago, I've only missed one convention but I was also registered for that convention. I only missed that convention because it was in Las Vegas and the airlines were going on strike, American Airlines.
When I got there, I said to the agent, I've said, "If I need to come back real fast, could I?" I said, "My father is very ill." He said, "Don't go." I said, "What?" He kept saying, "Don't go." My bags have been checked and my husband had gone home. He said, "Don't go." I said, "Okay, don't go then. Get my luggage--" I didn't go. That was the only one I missed. A couple of days later, my father did die, but that was the only convention in all of my life in counseling, only convention I've ever missed so.
Dr. Butler: That's a very powerful story in and of itself. This person saw something in that moment that you were there when your father passed.
Dr. Daley: Yes, yes, because of the agent behind the counter for American Airlines.
Dr. Butler: Right, right. People have something to think differently about American Airlines for when we're in trouble.
Dr. Butler: Definitely that, definitely that. I can see that in you that you have been a leader all of your life. You've done some phenomenal things in the counseling field. You were the very first African-American woman, Black woman to be president of ACA. What was that journey like to be in leadership during that time?
Dr. Daley: You know I was president of ASCA first. During the time-- I was president of ASCA, let me get my dates straight, '71, '72. Our association really wasn't mixed at all. Our association was basically a White male association. I never ran. I never thought I would be president of ASCA or APGA or ACA, but I wasn't the one pushing me. They were the people out there and they were all not African-Americans. They were all White people pushing me, so I would get this idea to be president of ASCA.
Then the ASCA people pushed me to be president of APGA, which became ACA and I said, "No, not me," and they said, "Yes, you." I said, "No, not me," and they said, "Yes, you." The first year I ran, I didn't win. They thought. Everybody I've met said, "You must have won," and I said, "But, no, I didn't win," but it was a close race. They said, "You will run again." I said, "I will?" They said, "You will." They pushed me. What I really did at that time was to break the barriers for women. Women were not looping through and I don't want them to think I'm an ancient, ancient something [crosstalk]
Dr. Butler: No, you're not.
Dr. Daley: It was the same thing in ASCA, and it was the same thing in APGA, ACA. I have to tell you, the board I chaired for this association was made up of all White males and one White woman. That was the board that I chaired, which is so different today.
Dr. Butler: Yes. How many members were on the board back then?
Dr. Daley: I can't remember. It was a big board and most of them--
Dr. Butler: It was big then, too? Because we got 25 voting members now so--
Dr. Daley: Well, it was a large board but it was made up of- most of the men were southern university professors. I always did my homework, President Butler, and I've always been strong in parliamentary procedures and so forth. I knew because my parents had always said it, my teachers all the way through had always-- "You always have to be better. You always have to be better." You kinda know that story, right?
Dr. Daley: Yes. You always have to be better, so I was better. I must have been better because in ACA, I don't know an entity. I chaired foundation. I chaired insurance trust. I was the first secretary-treasurer of the national board for certified counselors. I then parliamentarian, a treasurer, all of those things. I guess what I haven't done is that I've worked with some of the publishing companies, but people keep saying "When are you going to do your book? When are you going to do your book?" I haven't had time because I've been helping other people.
Dr. Butler: [laughs] Well, we got to get that book out there. Maybe it's the autobiography of Dr. Thelma Daley.
Dr. Daley: Yes, I know. When I look at today how we are, and I want to go back to some history for [crosstalk]
Dr. Daley: I did go and collect my files, and I said, "Oh, yeah. We are fighting today for social justice and for legislation." I just wouldn't go back to say Chuck Lewis was the executive director, they call it president executive director or something during that time. He was from Penn State. Joe McDonough is a name that you hear in history. He was the vice during that time. He emerged later to become the executive director of ACA.
One of the things was the ESEA, the Elementary and Secondary Education Act. Believe it or not, when I back to [unintelligible 00:13:48], I said, "Well, look who was fighting against us," because there was a whole section in there to give money to the SEAs and the LEAs, the State Education Association and the Local Education for career development and counseling and guidance. They were two organizations fighting to get that out of amendments. Yes, you can't believe who they were. The ones we buy materials from, it was the Association for Education Community and Technology and was the National Audiovisual Association. I just want to say that through the history, the association has been out there working for legislation.
Dr. Butler: Yes. That's powerful. That's a good lesson to learn and why we need to be doing that. When you talk about that, as counselors, we need to be on the forefront, making sure that we are doing the things that are necessary to make sure that the wellness of our clients, it's seen throughout, not just in their own lives, but in their communities, and in the states, and in this country in which they live in. What was that value like? What do you think is the importance of thinking outside of just that counseling room, in that space that you're in with the client?
Dr. Daley: You have to look at the whole environment because look at where your clients. Your clients live in the world. You have to be an advocate. You have to be a real advocate. You have to be an advocate for social justice. You have to be an advocate for people. The skills we have, we have to give those skills to the world. We also have to coalesce people. As Gil Wrenn said, the encapsulated counselor, "You can't live in a little bubble or a little hub." You yourself have to break out of that.
Dr. Butler: Right. You've mentored that for so many people in terms of you're a role model in how you lent yourself to that movement. What is your message to younger generations coming through now in counseling to give them that fire? I mean, I'm listening to you and I'm watching you and that fire is still there. How do we get that ignited in counselors of today, students who are matriculating right now in counselor ed programs?
Dr. Daley: In professors. You know, we are professors, whatever that means -fessors, professors.
Dr. Daley: What I would say, we have to also break out of our cloaks. If we are going to inspire others, we cannot be staid, and whatever, because it's a total world out there President Butler. Also, our clients are so diverse today. I think the Olympics, we're in the spirit now with the Olympics going on, I think the Olympics have brought mental health to the forefront, really to the forefront, really. That's enhancing the role of a counseling field so much there. That also leads us to other avenues in which we have to be present in other avenues. [crosstalk]
Dr. Daley: I want to go back to say something too because you're here as a very astute, handsome African-American, a successful leader. You also, I believe, was president of the multicultural association. I want to go back and tell you something about history because you have to be at the table. I want to get that across. You have to be at the table. Very few persons who looked like you and look like me, we're at the table in ACA. Luckily, I was there because down through ASCA, and I can remember being in-- We used to have big assemblies with, I guess, two from every state there, but in Atlantic City, in 1971, and I believe Gary waltz was the president-elect, and they were- and I would say with ASCA, and someone tapped me on my shoulder, wearing a dashiki.
Dr. Butler: I think I know who that was.
Dr. Daley: He said, "Can you get me the floor?" I've never seen the person before, and I said, "Yes, I'll get you the floor." I moved to the mic, and they recognized me, and I said, "I give the floor to Dr. Willie Williams." That was the first voice on the floor for diversity in the APGA, ACA history. That led to the formation, later steps, to get the association for non-White concerns and all of the others. You see, I didn't want that to be lost. I wanted that loop, and I didn't know who this-- I knew later that it was Dr. Willie Williams, who had been a part of the Black psychologists and all. All of the other people were in a room somewhere in Atlantic City, you know Dr. Sam and all. You know who I'm talking about?
Dr. Butler: Yes, Sam Johnson.
Dr. Daley: Sam Johnson and all in a room. Luckily, because others had pushed me when I didn't think I could do it, I was at the table. I want to put a word on tier, someone always has to be at the table, even if people have to pull up an extra chair. Somebody has to be at the table to open the door for others. I think part of my history is I open the door for diversity in the association, whether it was gender versity, or whatever, racial versity, whatever, because also, I think I told one of your staff members this yesterday, that when the gay and lesbian group started and our friend Joe, out of New York, wanted a workshop, and some of the high-ups, I don't want to say high-ups, but on some of the staff, people said, "No, we cannot have a workshop unless--" I said, "Oh, yes, you will. You will have it."
Dr. Butler: You will have it.
Dr. Daley: We did have it, yes. I went around business and you did have it. You got to have somebody at the table, you have to keep the door open, and you can't be quiet. You can't sit at the table and [unintelligible 00:20:53] just because you're at the table. That's I want to get [crosstalk]
Dr. Butler: You can't become complacent. You have to continue this fight. Then it goes back to what you said earlier, you always have to be the best. Your parents told you, my parents told me, you always have to be the best in order to be seen, and heard, and to be valued in spaces where you have a right to be. When you bring others on, I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you because of what you've done and what you've inspired, not only in me, but you've always pushed me. You never let me take the easy road. You were in my face not negatively, you were in my face saying, "This is going to be, and you should be doing this, and you should be proud of who you are," and all those other things.
You always lifted me. Even when you didn't even know me, as you were getting to know who I was, you lifted me and I just appreciate you. There's such a respect that you give. Even in challenging me, you always respected me. I think that's who I see you as a leader and as a person who has paved the way. You are definitely our trailblazer and people recognize that. I hope that you see the respect that people give back to you because of all the things that you laid out for us moving forward. When you think about, perhaps, the things that you have done, what are you the most proud of?
Dr. Daley: I don't know. I'm proud of all of you. I'm proud of all of you, really. I'm proud to see the association moving now in such a wonderful way, going on, and bursting out, and doing all of those things. I'm very proud of the people involved to our county which was my long, long-term, and even though I worked at [unintelligible 00:23:06] and all of that, the counselors set up, I did a lot of professional development board in a lot of people, but they do a summer institute each summer for about a week, and they call it the Dr. Thelma T. Daley Summer Institute. I would think that they named something to go on, and Baltimore county is a very large school system, to carry on in summer institute in my name.
Dr. Daley: I just think that's, gee-whiz, that touched me, whatever. I don't know what I'm proud of. I never think of what I'm proud of, but I want to tell you something else. I don't know how much time you have, but I want to tell you something else.
Dr. Daley: Never realized what you-- I just talked to Gordon McMahon out in Oregon yesterday. He was treasurer for ACA a couple of times, and he was also on the board, but then he reminded me of something I did for ASCA. I said, "Oh, you think about that." but let me tell you about a couple of things because I was also precedent of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority the same time I was president of the American Counseling Association.
Dr. Butler: What was that experience like?
Dr. Daley: It was wonderful because one enhanced the other because as president, the ACA buys some of your time from your employer so that you get some free time to travel and do it. Whenever I travel for all of those speeches and conferences for the Counseling Association, I can also meet with the Deltas in the evenings and so forth. I want to tell you a couple of things there.
Dr. Daley: My convention was in Chicago and you know the big conglomeration publishing company, Ebony Magazine, was in Chicago.
Dr. Daley: Even though Ebony is not flourishing today, President Johnson of Ebony, founder of Ebony, knew I was there and invited the whole board over. He had them explore the place, dine them with wine and steak and [unintelligible 00:25:43], and they had never gotten over that. Then, also, in a meeting in New Orleans and the Deltas knew I was there, and they said-- One lady opened up her house and she said, "I'm going to have some guests in. You may bring some people from your board." I invited members from my board to go and what they said to me later, the board people-
Dr. Daley: -that was the first time they had ever been in a home of an African-American.
Dr. Daley: Without realizing it you were bringing together this mix world.
Dr. Butler: You allow them to be able to see that the world doesn't have to be that different. They were able to come into a home that they may have not have been able to be a part of before, didn't think to go to before because they're Delta, there had to be some separation there. When you talk about the Deltas, one of the things that I've always fond of is you have a good friend and a colleague of mine here at the University of Central Florida, Dr. Martha Lue Stewart, who--
Dr. Daley: Yes, I know her. I know her, yes.
Dr. Butler: Yes. She came up to me. She's retiring this year.
Dr. Daley: Oh, oh, oh, give her my congratulations.
Dr. Butler: Yes, I will. See, she came up to me and told me, "I'd met somebody that you know very well." She kind of made the introduction because of the Delta connection. That's the beauty, right? We meet in various circles and the world is small because of the things that we're able to do and the things that are happening. I'm glad that we have both of those connections because it kept me in touch with you even when we weren't doing things for the counseling association.
Dr. Daley: Well, I just want to wish you the very best in your role, and I just want you to know that you're in the best profession in the whole world.
Dr. Butler: At this time, we're going to take a quick break, and we're going to come back, and we're going to talk some more with Dr. Thelma Daley.
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Dr. Butler: You had an opportunity, Dr. Daley, to talk about your experiences as a president of both organizations. Can you also talk a little bit about your experiences as a graduate student and as a new professional? What was that like for you moving forward and how might that be similar to what students are going through in this present day?
Dr. Daley: You mean when I was in the graduate program at New York University.
Dr. Daley: Oh, what was it like for me? That's wonderful because I love my professors and so I love experience there, but I also love New York because that brought a new experience for me. You know it. New York University is in downtown in Washington square. I had gone through segregate. In fact, New York University was my first experience in going to an integrated school setting, because I had gone through segregated schools, elementary, high school, college. All right. I found that so exciting that this wonderful diverse world was here and so forth.
I was very fortunate that my professors were good mentors too. One of my professors, because, also, I have the experience early in my life to testify in Congress, invited to testify. [unintelligible 00:29:59] spotted me at a conference in Minneapolis, and my supervisor was with me and said, "I want you to testify." It was on the National Defense Education Act where we got all of this money to go study. Even after I finished New York University, I went back for an intense six weeks all day long. My professor had all of us out of his house out in Long Island. That was also mentoring. That was also saying what else counseling is and what people should be.
Some of that rubbed off to me very interestingly, that the NCDA, National Career Development Association, had invited me to speak at Rutgers. Who was in the audience, but my former professor, who at that time, now, was dean of Rutgers. He and his wife were there. I was speaking and he was in the audience. He, too, had mentored me. I think mentoring is, well, modeling. Mentoring is also a form of modeling. They see you, they see you how you carry yourself, what you say, and how you do. You have to say exactly, "I'm mentoring you," but just what you do, you are mentoring.
Dr. Butler: Right, exactly.
Dr. Daley: I think that whole program, I don't know if we still have it, the new, whatever. We used to have the Newcomers or something, where we meet with the new people and--
Dr. Butler: Right, right, right. Newcomers at ACA conference.
Dr. Daley: Are we still doing that? I mean, that was [crosstalk]
Dr. Butler: Well, we haven't had conferences for two years yet, but we have, there is the newcomers' breakfast or something along those lines. I believe that's still happening.
Dr. Butler: I know that the president goes and they speak to invite in the new members or new students to the profession and helping them to navigate what the conference is like. They go through the conference program and share with them what it is that the conference is all about, what meetings they should go to, what receptions they might want to go to, and just all the ins and outs of the actual conference experience.
Dr. Daley: I just say, and I'm going to put the word modeling, because even when you speak to people, and if you are the speaker, and you're so haughty that nobody can touch you, then you are not modeling it. It really have to be congruent with your words.
Dr. Butler: Yes. Most definitely, most definitely. There has been some African-American and one Latinx woman who followed in your footsteps in terms of presidency of ACA. Who was the next person of color that was a president after you, female?
Dr. Daley: Well, it took 20 years for somebody to follow me, and that was Courtland, I believe, right?
Dr. Butler: Okay, but Courtland is male. Okay.
Dr. Daley: Then Beverley came.
Dr. Butler: Then Beverley after him?
Dr. Daley: I think that was it. Yes.
Dr. Butler: Every one of them that I know who has taken on the leadership of the organization has paid homage to you for paving the way and you have been, again, a role model and a mentor for them as well. What were some of the things that you have said? Can you think back to even some of the things that you said to me, because, like you, I didn't win the first time. I remember you saying to me also, "That's okay." You shared with me that time that you hadn't won the first time. You encouraged me to continue to stay in the race, and that my voice was needed.
What are some of the things or the lessons that you want to share with maybe leaders who are coming in our pathway? What do they need to know about being a leader? Not just for ACA, but just a leader in general?
Dr. Daley: Well, first of all, know yourself. Also, humility is a big part. Humility. My daddy had a little ugly picture, a little picture of me being so ugly, I think my mother had just washed my hair or something, but he kept that little picture. [unintelligible 00:34:49] I said, "Dad, why did you pull out that picture?" He said, "If you ever think you're getting too big for your shoes, look at this little picture here." [chuckles] He was keeping me grounded. I can still see that little picture there. You have to stay grounded, but you also have to believe in yourself. You have to believe in yourself, but you can't do it alone.
Dr. Daley: You always have the link, link, link, link. I looked at the gymnastics team this morning. They were in the Rockefeller Plaza there, but they were all together. They have come out as a team. Don't forget that there are others. You can't do it alone. Don't discard people, because I've seen people go up the ladder, "Here I am now. They're with me." Then they get up the ladder. "They don't want to be with me." Then they get to this level. "They don't want to be there. They're always climbing." Well, you must watch the rungs on your ladder. Not all of them might be so nailed that they will stay there. You have to carry people with you and don't discard people, is what I would say. Don't discard people, but believe in yourself. You also have to always keep refurbishing.
Dr. Butler: Refurbishing, yes, you got to stay loose. You got to refresh. You got to continue fresh.
Dr. Daley: You got to keep refurbishing. I always say that age is not measured in terms of chronological age. It is measured in terms of your functional age. For your functional age, to be relevant, you've got to keep refurbishing and learning and learning and learning and being involved with people. People spur you on.
Dr. Butler: That's such a great lesson.
Dr. Daley: The more you give, the more will come back to you. The more you've given in an unselfish, altruistic way, come bouncing right back to you, and you didn't even know it.
Dr. Butler: Right. Right back to you.
Dr. Butler: That's phenomenal. I can imagine, and I know this has happened to me, and I don't want to bring a negativity to this, but I can imagine that people haven't always been in your corner and have not treated you well. How have you responded in those situations?
Dr. Daley: Oh, I've been strong because I've heard them whisper. It's very interesting. I couldn't be president of my state-- I was president of APGA, ACA before I could be president of my state association. I came back to Maryland to be president of the state association. I heard once, the former, I was very new in the field, but the former executive director, when I was running for an office, for a counseling office in Baltimore County against a male, and the executive director had been invited. He said, "I don't think they're ready for her at this time."
I heard that statement. I knew what it meant. I knew what it meant in there, but I had been shielded from life. My parents, my mother, and my father, and my grandparents were all strong people. I have to tell you, my grandmother, my paternal grandmother was president of the PTA for 25 years.
Dr. Daley: Yes, think about that, but you also have to shield yourself and believe in yourself because it's not always going to be easy, but just know where you're going. Map your path and stay in your path and don't let the vampires or the snakes or whatever get to you. Shield yourself, but also, find the places there where others will boost you in where you can be because the world is so big.
Dr. Butler: Yes, I love that. That's such a lesson. That is such a lesson because the world can be trying.
Dr. Butler: Especially when you're trying to bring equity to the table. I think one of the messages that I have is that I want people to recognize that this is not about me trying to come in take away from you. It's about me coming in finding my own space and my own place and having my own. So many times, people think that when somebody is trying to have equity or a place at the table, that it's coming at their expense. That's never been the case. I hear that in your voice right now, that you're standing strong and proud of who you are because you believe you have a right to be there. Not because you believe you're taking somebody else's spot away.
Dr. Daley: No, I'm not taking anybody else's spot away. I'm linking arms with you. I'm linking arms with you-
Dr. Butler: That's so powerful.
Dr. Daley: -but you see me as a strong human being, and together, you have something to offer, you have something to offer, bring it all together. I want to go back to Dr. Mary McLeod Bethune, who founded Bethune-Cookman University now. She said, “You know, I put up one finger and it wouldn't hurt you much. I put up two, not so much, but if I put up my fist here, it's a force.” If I come together, not as one person, but if I come together as a whole team, look at the force here. Look at the force here. Look at the force here. Look at the force here.
Dr. Daley: Yes, not just one. I can’t do so much with one. A little bit more with two, but not that much, but look at them together. The power, look at that in terms of how strong our organization is now because we have worked together all of these. Well, look at the divisions, you call them divisions, but they represent the world. When you go through ACA now, I see the Native Americans, I see the people who are not afraid to say that I'm a lesbian, or I'm gay, or I'm whatever. I have to go to our past president, Arredondo, who was the first Latino president in our association. Look at where we are in terms of this. It's a beautiful, beautiful world that we could relate to a garden growing, or whatever it is, the wonders of a world.
Dr. Butler: Right. Why are we fearful of it? We shouldn't be. We should embrace it.
Dr. Daley: We are fearful-- Yes, we should embrace it, but we are also so fearful when we are inferior. The more inferior we are, the more fearful we are. When we are sure of ourselves and know where we want to go, we do not fear that much. But if we--
Dr. Butler: Dr. Daley, I can tell you that you have just dropped so much knowledge. The mic has dropped. Everything that's come from you this time together, how phenomenal that word is coming from you in terms of-- It is so real. That's the passion that you have. That's the gift that you have for our society, and for our counseling community for sure, is to listen to what you just said, and how you just kind of beautifully just stated that it's together. It's together that we can do this. It's not singular. We need to see each other for who we are.
Such powerful lessons. I mean, I'm sitting here with goosebumps because of what you've just shared. I always hear from you, I mean, that's the gift of listening to our mentors and the people who have gone before us because you paved the way. Are there other things that you want to share, other knowledge tidbits that you want to drop because I'm telling you, I've been so inspired just listening to you.
Dr. Daley: Well, I don't know about the tidbits. You're telling me what I-- I'm just plain Thelma.
Dr. Butler: There you go.
Dr. Daley: Even if I look at the board, the ACA board, the governing Council, sometimes people come on because they've been elected from a division or from a branch and it's the same thing. Well, when I come on that board, I'm on the national board. I'm not from-- I may have been elected from this, but we are board. That's the same thing when we go back to the governance there.
Another thing there, I always say that I think about the fact that, because we've always had a big yard and my late husband always liked to work in the yard and the garden, I always think about the fact that, gee, there's a time of the year when you have to prune all of your shrubbery. You have to prune. I think that we have to prune when we come to the governing council, we have to prune our minds so that we can grow back more fully, okay.
Dr. Butler: [chuckles] Yes.
Dr. Daley: I know how the gardener would come and he said, “I'm going to cut down all of your hydrangeas.” I said, “You’re going to cut them all down?” He said, “Yes.” Then he would come back the next spring, he said, “See, didn’t I tell you how beautiful they are?” I just want to say every now and then all of us have to prune ourselves, get rid of the dead shrubberies, and so forth so that we can blossom more fully than we ever thought we would blossom.
Dr. Butler: Wow. That's a lesson. You are, and will always be, the phenomenal Dr. Thelma Daley. When I think of the poem that Maya Angelou put forward, Phenomenal Woman, in your grace, in your ability to share who you are, unabashedly vibrant, you send a message to so many people and it's again, so many people across many intersectionalities. It's not even just Black women. Your message resonates because, like you said, it's who you are and the fact that you believe in yourself, and I'm sitting here getting strength and believing in myself because of the words that you are able to share. I know that you've gone through more than I've gone through, you've paved the way so I can have an easier pathway and that's part of your legacy.
Part of your legacy is that you took the bumps and the bruises early on when we weren't at the table, when we didn't have access to the table, and you paved the beautiful way for us to be able to follow through. I just am, I'm flabbergasted that I get to know you and that you get to be a part of what I hope to be my legacy because I want to grow and learn from you. As I've said to other leaders who have been my mentors, I stand on your shoulders not to break you down, but to continue moving forward the legacy that you have started.
Dr. Thelma Daley, I want to give you your flowers for all the things that you have done, and for being my friend. I can't wait to be with you and to get that hug the next time that we're together. We got my little virtual hug right now, but I'm anticipating the real one, perhaps come next April in Atlanta. Thank you so much.
Dr. Daley: You have had boosted me. I am just Thelma. I'm just plain Thelma. I just want to say you bring so much power, or you bring so much dignity and you are a role model. I wish you the very best in your journey. The journey goes on and on and on. The journey goes on and on and on.
Dr. Butler: Not just us, right? It goes on.
Dr. Daley: It goes on, and there are many, many people along the way, many people along the way. Yes.
Dr. Butler: As we come to an end, I just, again, want to thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to be here, to share with the counseling community. Your words matter. You made it so explicit and so clear and I just want to thank you.
From the American Counseling Association, I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler, thank you for joining us today for our podcast or vodcast, I should say, and I look forward to seeing you next time.
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