Female Speaker: Welcome to The Voice of Counseling presented by the American Counseling Association. This program is hosted by Dr. S. Kent Butler. This week's episode is titled, Pathways Two Decades Later and features Dr. Courtland Lee.
Dr. S. Kent Butler: Welcome to the inaugural episode of the voice of counseling from the American Counseling Association. I'm Dr. S. Kent Butler joining us today is Dr. Courtland Lee. Courtland is an ACA author, a professor of counseling, and past president of the American Counseling Association. Courtland. Welcome.
Dr. Courtland Lee: Thank you, Kent. It's a pleasure to be with you this morning.
Kent: It's good to see you.
Courtland: Good to see you.
Kent: We have a little bit of stuff in common right now. I'm walking in your pathway and I get to serve as the second African-American president of the American Counseling Association. Tell us a little bit about your journey and what you've been through and maybe what this moment means for you.
Courtland: This moment means an awful lot to me. I can remember probably about 10 years ago, sitting with my wife at an ACA conference and just musing about the fact that I hoped that before I died, I would see another African American male elected president of ACA. It is so wonderful to see you as the second African-American male president of the American counseling association. I'm just bursting this pride and I wish you the best of success as you go through this journey. It is an incredible journey. It has an awful lot of wonderful, wonderful highs and also has some lows, but it will be an experience that will be really one of the highlights of your life. I'm just bursting with pride to see you in this position. It's been a long time coming, so congratulations.
Kent: A little over 22 years, maybe even longer. [crosstalk] Say it one more time?
Courtland: That's right. I joke with people, say that I was president of the American Counseling Association back in the 20th century, which is true. I was president from 1997 to 1998 so it really was the 20th century.
Kent: Exactly. This pathway has been really interesting for me because when I first entered into the counseling world, a little over 20 years ago now, you were one of the icons that I knew even then because I was using research that you had put into the counseling world. I was looking at African-American males and mentoring and all those things. That was your mainstay in some regards. What attracted me to you was how you carried yourself and how you provided the community with a role model. Can you talk a little bit about what that means to you and maybe who your role models and mentors that stepped in and given you the, I guess, the wherewithal to be able to be that for others?
Courtland: I consider myself extremely fortunate, in terms of the early socialization that I had in the counseling profession. I got my master's degree, at Hunter College at the City University of New York back in the 1970s. It was a time in the counseling profession where there were very, very few, at least in terms of academia, there were very, very few people who look like you or I. The way I like to put it is, I was sleepwalking through my master's program. It was interesting. It was okay, but it really wasn't anything to really set me on fire, so to speak.
What really changed for me was a class I took in my second year of my master's training, it was a course called social foundations of counseling. It had some innocuous name, I'm not sure what it was. We were told that it was going to be taught by a new professor who had just been hired and they didn't tell us anything about this individual. I remember going to class the first day and walking to the classroom and there in the front of the room was a very, very well-dressed African American male, who introduced himself and said, "I'm Dr. Alfred Pasteur, and this course, social foundations, and counseling is going to be about the black experience in counseling." That got my attention right away.
I was one of only two black students in the class with about 20 males. I was the only black male in the class. Well, he certainly got my attention for two reasons. One, he was the best-dressed professor I had ever had, that rather was sharp. Not only was he sharp sartorially, but he was also sharp academically. He in that first class was like talking about stuff that no one had ever talked about in terms of counseling, from a black perspective. He started to let me understand that there really was a black experience and a whole body of knowledge from an African-American perspective.
I remember saying to myself at the end of that class, I want to be like him when I grow up. It was the only class that I never missed. It was the only class that inspired me to really work hard, to do the assignments in a really, really important way. He noticed this and he took me under his wing. He was and continues to be my mentor. He passed away about 10 years ago, but really everything I know about what it means to be a counselor and a counselor educator I learned from him.
I was also very fortunate to have the opportunity to get my doctorate in a program, federally funded program at Michigan State University. It was called the urban counseling program and it was run by the late Dr. Thomas Gunnings. He basically, and I get very frustrated because when I hear people talking about systemic issues in counseling, in social justice, and in advocacy, his name is never mentioned. He was the father of all that stuff.
He's the one who laid out the theoretical notions of what we know as systemic intervention, social justice, advocacy, and all of those things. I was exposed to that as a doctoral student and I also had the opportunity to meet the then the giants, what I would call the first generation of African-American scholars in counseling. People like Clemmont Vontress, people like Willie Williams, people like Joseph White, names that unfortunately in many respects are lost today, but they're the ones who laid the foundation. They're the ones who gave me the guidance and the understanding of what it meant to be a counselor educator. I've also had the opportunity to be in on the ground of the founding of the association for nonwhite concerns in counseling which is now the Association of Multicultural Counseling and Development AMCD. Had the opportunity to meet and work with some of the founders of that division.
Also again, the founders of what we now know is a real solid knowledge base of what we can call Black psychology, Black notions in counseling, which is really the forerunner of multicultural counseling that we know today. These people really showed me how to carry myself. They also helped me find my voice. My voice was different from a majority voice or a white voice but it was as valid as that voice and needed to be heard. All these people in one way or another took me under their wing, showed me how, as you say, how to carry myself. One of the things that I'm famous for is when you see me at a conference, I'm pretty sharp in terms of how I dress.
Kent: You are pretty sharp.
Courtland: That's because the people who nurtured me did that. That basically, it's that old notion that as Black people, we can't afford to be stepping out in baggy corduroys and those kinds of things. We have to really basically look sharp. Basically, because that's one of the ways that people will look at us and listen to us so that we can break all kinds of stereotypes. That's really how I was nurtured, if you will, in the profession by people who basically have found the voice for the Black experience and were really articulating that voice not only verbally, but also in the written word as well.
Kent: You are a leader, especially in the Black community when it comes to working with Black young men and African-American young men. What led you to that particular area and can you talk a little bit about why it's important for counselors to understand how to work with African men?
Courtland: My work with African American males was generated by several things. First of all, I always like to say to people, one of the motivators for this was having been an African American male all my life, but also having been an African American male who had beaten some odds. I was not one of those statistics. Unfortunately, back when I was getting started, the statistics that we know today they haven't changed a whole. About Black men being dead on drugs in jail and all of those kinds of things.
I was doing a lot of work at the time. I just started my career. I was an assistant professor at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. I was starting to do work with school systems in North Carolina. In particular, school systems that were struggling with recently being de-segregated, integrated how you want to put it, and not really understanding Black kids, but in particular Black males.
I remember after being invited to talk with people at various schools about the Black male developments, I remember sitting down and saying, how can I really, from a counseling perspective, put on paper some direction, some notion for understanding the development of Black males. That's when I started my writing about Black males and the program that I developed for African American males as well. Again, to try to counter those negative statistics of young Black males in schools but as well as just Black male devastation, I would put it in general.
Kent: When I say the terms, mind, body, and soul, what does that mean to you?
Courtland: That's what development is all about. That's one of the things that is the basis of my developmental ideas. That if we're going to basically, as I like to say help to empower young Black males, we have to help them develop their bodies, their minds, and souls. I got that, and I'm always very honest and upfront about this, I got that from my experience as a kid. I spent a lot of time at the YMCA. The YMCA is simple as a triangle in its body, mind, and spirit, which is what they're all about.
Young Christian men have to have strong bodies, strong minds, and strong spirits. I decided to take that as the basis for my work. I changed it a little bit, I changed spirit to soul so I wouldn't be accused of stealing stuff from the YMCA but it just makes perfect sense from a developmental perspective, which is very what we're about in counseling is that if we want to help to develop healthy people, we have to help them develop in a holistic sense, their bodies, their minds, their souls are the students.
Kent: When I wrote my dissertation, and I started working with the upward bound program which is a free help program for youth in the city, first-generation youth, and your book and your philosophy was a mainstay in terms of what I wanted to put into the work that I was doing, I so bought into the manhood training. That was a part of that model. I just kept at that particular point in time, looking back to Africa. I kept looking back to Africa and I was like, "I got to get over there, I got to see what they're doing. I got to see what Dr. Courtland Lee is talking about when he's talking about bringing all these entities together and really moving the needle when it comes to the growth and the development of African-American males." Then it just dawned on me that that was where I needed to focus myself.
Coming to a conference and seeing you was a highlight because in my world, I didn't see people who I wrote about, who I had any type of connection to. There you were in living color at these conferences. One of the things that I talk about a lot is that people don't really understand it and they say that you're not, but I'm like, I'm introverted. I am really, at the beginning of stages of moving into meeting people, I'm really reserved and I'm pretty much shy and I'm standing back and just watching and observing what's going on before I can jump in and enter in. In a very real sense, I think that's who you are too, in regards to that. How do you navigate that? Because I think I modeled my behavior after seeing what others have done in the field, but how do you interact and come out of yourself to be a part of that larger audience and still be that introvert that you are if you claim that? I can't claim it for you.
Courtland: No. You're absolutely right. I am an introvert and I am extremely shy. People are surprised to hear that when they see me at a conference. I'm an introvert and I'm extremely shy. It's something I've worked on my entire life. I have also learned how to basically, for lack of a better way to put it, manage my being an introvert. Part of it is that in any conference or in a professional context I will devote any number of hours to being an extrovert. Let's say from nine to five, I'm going to do what I have to do as an extrovert, and really work hard at it. At five o'clock or whatever time it happens to be, that's it. I'm through with that. I have to have my, I time. At any conference, any professional-- When the workshop is over or the day of meetings or whatever, I'm going back to my hotel room or whatever, and I'm going to be alone. After having dinner, later on, I will do it, but I have to be alone and I have to have my I time.
Most of my time, in that professional context, I am alone. Even in my married life, my wife's, unfortunately, as you know has passed away, but she was an introvert too. We also would carve out our own I time during the day. I think that is extremely important for any introvert who finds themselves in a position where they have to interact with each people. You can do it. You can do it to the point where your batteries are depleted you just have to go and recharge and the recharging is being alone. Which is one reason why at any ACA conference, you won't see me as the evening receptions or the hanging out with people in the lobbies and all of that stuff. I don't do that. I'm tired.
There are times when I will go out to dinner but I'll only go out to get her with maybe one or two other people. It's people that I've known for a long time and are comfortable with enough. Don't take me out to dinner with somebody I got to meet for the first time and make small talk with. [unintelligible 00:19:13] that all day. I don't want to do that. That's how I've managed that throughout my career.
Kent: That's excellent because I guess I find myself in those spaces as well. I give myself to the counseling community during those conferences and things along those lines. I do backtrack and I have to decompress and come back to self. People don't recognize that. They say, "Oh, no, you're extroverted. You're this you're that." I was like, "No, I know how to be extroverted." But in a very real sense, I need that downtime to be able to collect and find out where I am, who I am. I take some advice from you even now in terms of how do I separate from that, even in my home. I didn't even think about it in that regard because raising children and having a house full of folks. I do tend to step aside and go into a room and chill out in that space but I also have to recognize that that's not how it's being perceived sometimes by the folks who are in the house.
Courtland: You can be perceived as being aloof and distant and all those kinds of things, but it's not that. If you don't do that as an introvert, you're going to burn out. I know many extroverts and they don't like being alone. They don't need any alone time. They're perfectly happy, always being around other folks. My head would explode if I had to do that.
Kent: I tell you that the pandemic really opened up the doors for those of us who are introverts because I have no issue being here at home and living life in the way but I heard so many people saying I got to get out of this house. I got to go be with people. It was like a dream come true in some sense to get through a lot of what's going on. What would you say is your main message to young people coming into the profession now?
Courtland: I think it's a multi-part message. Part of it is to work hard, to be passionate about what you do, and to work hard at it. To make sure that as you continue up the ladder or your journey that you always remember to reach behind you, to make sure that you are pulling up those who are coming behind you. Don't take yourself too seriously, have the ability to laugh at yourself. Understand that in any situation you find yourself in that this too will pass. I find people getting so hung up on stuff that they don't really need to get hung up on. As we were just talking about, it's really important that people find balance in their lives, that there's your professional life and there's your personal life. You have to make sure that you find that bal-- It's the whole wellness thing that you hear a lot about. That you find balance, that you have to work as hard as your personal life, as you do with your professional life and you have to have the balance between that.
Kent: What changed a lot since when you started? You were in a very good position in your master's program, and then your doctoral program to see people who look like you. I didn't have that luxury, which made it doubly hard for me to get to know even you, when I first came into the counseling field, because you were untouchable. I know you do that, but the truth is that for me, I didn't know how to talk to a Courtland Lee. You opened the door to me being able to do that pretty early on in my career. I didn't have the luxury of having someone standing in front of me in the classroom who looked like me, who let me know that this was a clear pathway. That's changing now for a lot of the counseling community because there are more and more of us who are concert educators who are doing this work. What is the message to those individuals who are out there, who are still in universities and colleges that don't get the opportunity to see people who look like us in that classroom experience? What would you say to them in terms of how they enter into this journey?
Courtland: One of the things that I remember helped me as a brand new, untenured assistant professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where I was the only person who looked like me in my department and one of only, two or three in the entire college school of education was that I had to establish and network outside of- immediate setting which is why it became really important to go to conferences where I could network and connect with people I knew around the country. I would say that that would be the way to do it now. If you're talking about students, we many times you can't afford to go to conferences and those kinds of things but still in all, find ways to get involved with mentorship programs. I know AMCD has mentorship programs. Find ways that you can connect.
The other thing is, and you've alluded to this, is you do have the opportunity to go to a conference or a professional setting and you need someone who's a little bit more accomplished than you is to not be afraid to go up to them, introduce yourself, and say, "I need some assistance. I need some help." To give you an example, and I'll use her name. I don't think she'll mind, Carla Bradley, who is the incoming editor of the Journal of Multicultural Counseling and Development. I've known Carla since she was a doctoral student when I was president of ACA. She and about two or three of her Black colleagues in her doctoral program, we're having a real, real difficult time.
Carla basically got on the telephone and called me up. Her friend said, "Oh, he's not going to take your call and he's not going to do what you are thinking he's going to do." She called me up, she introduced herself, and she said, "We're having some real problems here. We're the only Black students and we're basically catching it from all sides. This is what we were wondering if you could do. We would like to invite you to come and spend a couple of days with us and just talk with us and do some work with us to--" and said, "I know that's probably something you can't do. I know you're probably very busy." She was pretty shocked when I said, "Sure, I'll be happy to do it," and I did.
You'll appreciate this, it was right after the governing council meeting. I'd chaired a governing council meeting, it was over and I needed a mental health break after the governing council meeting. I got on an airplane and I flew up to Ohio and I spent about two or three days with these students. As I said, I formed a bond with Carla that I've had now for,I don't know, probably close to 30 years, and I've watched career progression. I think I've been a part of that. Now, I'm not saying that everybody is going to get on the telephone or email with everybody and invite them and they're going to come
Most of the people that I know who I would consider to be giants in the field are accessible people. If you come up to them and you introduce yourself. They're going to help you in whatever way they can. I'm always telling people, don't be afraid to come up to me or whoever we're talking about. Wherever you see us, email. I'm always getting emails from people I need your help with this, that, and the other thing and I'm very happy to help them in whatever way I can. Again, that's part of that advice I said about reaching behind you. One of the things that I was taught early on is that we are a community. It's that whole notion of it takes a village that we are a community as African American counselor educators, scholars.
Kent: There's a time when there's a tough-love situation too right?
Courtland: I've been in several.
Kent: [unintelligible 00:29:07] making the bread. They're not doing what they're supposed to be doing. How do you handle those situations?
Courtland: You get on the telephone, or you get on email, or you sit with somebody in a hotel lobby and you have what I call a come to Jesus meeting. I've had many of those over the years. People are like, "Hey, you need to straighten up and fly right," or whatever it comes down to in terms of giving them the tough love that they need to hear. I've told people who said things like, "I'm about to apply for a faculty position at institution X." I said, "No, you don't need to be applying there because you will not get tenure. You don't write, you will perish. You will publish and perish. You don't need to go there." It's things as hard as that. Telling people the stuff that is tough love kind of stuff. I've done a lot of that. I think it's part of those being an elder and being part of the community.
Kent: Excellent. Thank you for that. Think it's an excellent time to take a pause real quick. We were talking about Pathways Two Decades Later with Dr. Courtland Lee who is ACA first African American male president over 20 years ago. I'm Dr. Kent Butler, and this is The Voice of Counsel from the American Counsel Association. Our conversation continues in a moment.
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Kent: Welcome back. Again, I'm Kent Butler and we're continuing our conversation with Dr. Courtland Lee. When you think about all the things that you have been able to accomplish in your career, what is the most significant or what is your proudest achievement?
Courtland: That's a tough one. There's been so many things that I'm proud of. Probably when I think about that, it's probably the fact that I have a best-selling book with ACA that is now in its fifth edition. I'm getting ready to work on the sixth edition. The pride is not in the fact that the book is a best seller. The pride comes in the fact that I donated the royalties of that book to a fund, scholarship fund, and every year I'm able to give out a scholarship to a deserving student who has basically excelled in some area of multi-cultural to diversity counseling. The Courtland Lee Multi-cultural award or whatever it's called. I think I'm proudest of that because again, it's that notion of giving something back.
Kent: What was it about that moment that made you make that decision that you would put it towards the scholarship?
Courtland: Actually, it was suggested to me by a past president of ACA. I was having a talk with him about just stuff in general. I think it was right after the first to second edition came out and they said, "Why don't you donate the royalties to ACA?" I said-- How can I put this. I'm not John Grisham so the royalties for the book are not John Grisham-like. It's not a great deal of money. I can live without the money. I don't need the royalties in order to live, so what would be a good way to put this money to good use? It made a lot of sense. I've been doing it ever since. I think this is the second edition of the book. Just again, as a way to give something back to the profession.
Kent: That's phenomenal. The key to that is also something that people who are following your footsteps can look at and say, "You know what, that's a great model and behavior of how to give back and how to provide something to someone." What kind of relationship do you have with the recipients of that scholarship? Have they been able to communicate with you and tell you what that scholarship has meant to them moving forward?
Courtland: Yes, I hear from-- Let's hear how many we've given out now, but I hear from most of them on a fairly regular basis. Many of them have gone on to do great things and they always talk about how grateful they are. This recognition and how it has been a real important part of their development as a professional. That in and of itself, of course, is really rewarding to me.
Kent: Earlier in the conversation, you talked a little bit about being at the helm of AMCD becoming the association that it is today, and you got the chance to now be the president of AMCD and ACA you're going to go down in history as one of the greatest men in counseling and there's no doubt about that. What is your legacy in your mind?
Courtland: What is my legacy? Well, I guess being a trailblazer. Being the first African-American male president of ACA. One of the things we haven't talked about is the international work that I've done being the president of the International Counseling Association. I think being a part of being helpful and being a catalyst to helping counseling grow as a profession internationally. Certainly, the scholarly work that I've done, the books, the journal articles, those kinds of things. I think also my legacy is all of the students both master's and doctoral students that have gone on to do really amazing things as scholars as school counselors, mental health counselors, leaders in the profession, either at the local level, state-level, national level. I think those are the aspects of the things I'm proudest of.
Kent: Yes, the beauty of that is the number of individuals who you have impacted their lives have come from a whole host of intersectionalities that you walk the walk. You didn't just say, "Hey, this is my stitch. I'm going to be sitting here and looking only at African-American males." You've helped so many individuals which I think is a powerful thing because I think that's what people need to understand. Yes, I am an African-American male, but I'm more than that. I'm an educator, I'm a counselor who happens to be an African-American male on top of that, which is for many cases, the cherry on top of the cake, or the ice cream, or sundae.
Courtland: Yes, I won't say I was given this advice, at least not overtly, but I think several people who I consider to be mentors told me that AMCD will always be your home, but you've got so much to offer the profession beyond just AMCD. We would like to see you get involved in other things, other divisions, and others and other things. When I was editor of the Journal of Multicultural Counseling and Development, by virtual of being a journal editor I was on the ACAs counsel of general editors. It was all the journal editors together. I became chair of that. I became chair of that, I got involved with [unintelligible 00:38:37]. I got involved with Chi Sigma Iota. All of these things, which as you said gave me visibility as a leader who happens to be African-American as opposed to an African-American leader.
Kent: That's very powerful. One of the things that I look back on is we started together looking at trying to create an avenue for counselor educators. We met in, I believe it was Ohio. I think Ohio is where, was it in Cincinnati, Ohio that we tried to have our first meeting where we were looking at how we can help to grow the profession and bring African-American male and female counselors counsel educa--
Courtland: Yes. I remember which-- No, actually, that was at the University of Maryland.
Kent: The first one was at the University of Maryland.
Courtland: I remember I did have a meeting in Ohio. Correct.
Kent: That was powerful for me because one of the things that is my message this year is tap someone in. It came at a time where we were getting to know each other but I didn't necessarily know you as well as I think I know you now and I can't even begin to tell you that I don't know all of who you are. I've learned so much from you even just today. But you, at that point in time called me, and it was really interesting. I was laughing to myself just now. I was like, "You know what? I'm probably one of the only people who has Courtland Lee's cell phone number." That's such a powerful thing that, to have Courtland Lee's cell phone number. You contacted me and said, "I want you to be a part of this thing I'm building." and that, let me know that you saw me and that's the thing that I think is a key is that we need to be able to see each other and what somebody else has to give and what somebody else can provide. You've never been selfish with that and that's the lesson you learned from the people who've mentored you?
Courtland: Yes, one of the phrases that, I learned and use a lot is, 'You have no choice.' I said this to so many bright, talented master's students are now going on to get their Ph.Ds. I say to them, "You have no choice in this you're going on for your Ph.D." or, "You have no choice in this. You have to be a part of this group we're putting together." When you see talent and you see potential, you basically have to make sure that it's basically exploited and nurtured, in positive ways. One of the ways of doing that is saying because many times, when I've said to masters students about going on for their Ph.Ds., "You're going on for your Ph.D. and you have no choice in the matter." and it's like, 'You think I can go for a Ph.D.?" Yes, you're going for your Ph.D. you have no choice In the matter."
Later, these people have gone on to greatness and they said, "Dr. Lee is the one who said to me, I had to do this. I had no choice." That's become a running joke with the folks who know me. If he says, "You have no choice. You got no choice in the matter." And I think that that's what it comes down to in terms of being able to recognize talent and potential and helping you to develop. Part of that is many times giving people a shot of self-confidence that many times they didn't even realize they had.
Kent: That is so true. I think about my own journey in terms of that, and having conversations with you. I remember having conversations early on when I wasn't even thinking about leadership. I remember Judy Lewis coming up to me and this is a white female, before she passed away, she saw something in me and she said to me, "You're going to be ACA president one day." I looked at her like, 'Who are you? What are you talking about?" I knew who she was but it was that's not even something that's on my radar but over the years in communicating and growing, because I was green. I'm quite sure when you first met me, you were like, "Who is this kid?" but you still took me under your wing and communicated with me and helped me.
One of the greatest lessons I think I got from you was when we sat down and talked after I didn't win the first time and you said, "Don't give up" and you were serious. You tapped me, you said, "I need to talk to you. Let's find some time we can go and we can talk." This was between your nine and five, I guess. I'm joking and so we got together and we talked and you said to me some things that I'll never forget because those were the lessons that helped me to say, "This is more than me." I think that's what you were saying. This is more than you. This is about what we can do or what you're going to be able to do for the profession moving forward.
At that point in time, I think it was 20 years since you had been president. I just want to personally just tell you how phenomenally thankful I am to have you in my life because you have not only been a role model but you've also been someone who through the thick of it all, even in the hard time you were like, "Look" in the really real sense of, "Get it together. You have something that you have to be able to bring forward and share." I just want to thank you for taking the time to sow into me because what I am able to do is because I stand on your shoulders and I know that. I want to recognize that and I think that's one of the beauties of what we should be doing for each other as a member of a black community is giving people their flowers, so to speak as a church saying, "Don't let the moment pass where you don't tell somebody what they mean to you."
At the risk of becoming emotional or anything along those lines, I just want you to know that you have a gift, you're powerful, and through your trials and tribulations. I know you've been through some things especially with the passing of your wife and others, you still give. That's just something that you need to know that you're appreciated for. This is not something that people are just taking from you, taking from you, but I also want to give back to you as well as what you've given to me. I just want to thank you.
Courtland: Well, I appreciate and you're welcome. I really appreciate that. I remember talking to you. That was an example of what I talked about earlier, a come to Jesus meeting. I know you were really dejected after losing and I had been there because when the first time I ran, I didn't win. Excuse me. I had basically said, "I'm only going to do this once. If I don't win, I'm not running again." People had sat me down and talked to me, encouraged me to run again. I remember that come to Jesus meeting very well. It's also because of the fact that with all due respect to any of our brothers out there, our colleagues, you were the only black male who was positioned to be president of ACA. We couldn't lose you or I couldn't lose that opportunity because this 20-year stretch was too much. I was not going to die without seeing another black male president. I had to basically pump some kind of confidence and enthusiasm into you.
That was my whole purpose with that come to Jesus meeting.
Kent: I'm glad. I'm going to let you go ahead.
Courtland: Now talking about standing on the shoulders of giants, the image that I'm getting now is that there's this totem pole of individuals that is growing because I know I'm standing on the shoulders of giants and I know now there are people standing on my shoulders and there will be people who will be standing on your shoulders. This totem pole that I see will continue to grow and that I think is really a testament to a lot of people and the leadership and encouragement that this is.
Kent: Well, I appreciate that because I'm always amazed when people come up to me and I don't know if this is the same for you. I'm amazed when people come to me and say, "Hey, I followed you with this, or I followed this or that, with what you've done." I think the introverted me is like, "Really?" I go to a conference I'm just hanging out. I'm not expecting somebody to come up and say that they read this article, or they did this, or they saw this, or they were a part of this presentation that I did or something. It gets to be a little overwhelming when those types of moments happen. You've been dealing with this now, with people coming up to you probably for about 22 years plus.
I can imagine again, as an introvert that somebody coming up to you when you're just doing the work, that's the beauty of it all. I see you just doing the work. I'm not doing this work for recognition. I'm not trying to fight for social justice for recognition, I'm doing this because it's a need. It's necessary. It has to happen. I just happened to have a platform where I've been able to have a voice to do that. That's where I'm coming from. When people say that they're inspired by the words that I've said or things that I've done, I look back to people like you because when I first started this field, I never thought that I would be in the position where I am today but you allowed that space, you and others.
I count you and Thomas [unintelligible 00:50:24] as my biggest mentors because you both sowed into me, just very much like you said, Clemmont did with you and the two other leaders that were in your way that taught you how to dress well and everything else. Paying homage to that is, to me, a phenomenal thing. It's been really great to be in your presence. We're coming to the end of this. I'm wondering if you have any last-minute words that you'd like to share.
Courtland: Well, first of all, thank you for this opportunity, I've really enjoyed it. It's interesting we're doing this now because I've just retired after 42 years as a counselor educator. I'm not really retiring, I'm transitioning into other things. What I'd really like to say in terms of this is I wish you all the success as president of ACA and enjoy the ride.
Kent: I appreciate that. Thank you. I will bank that, I will put that into the bank account and use that to continue moving forward. To all those listening in and watching this podcast, thank you. From the American Counseling Association, I'm Dr. Kent Butler. Thank you for joining us and make it a good day. We'll see you soon.
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